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Jewish Philosophy as a Guide to Life
Jewish Philosophy as a Guide to Life: Rosenzweig, Buber, Lvinas, Wittgenstein | Hilary Putnam
36 posts | 4 read | 4 to read
Distinguished philosopher Hilary Putnam, who is also a practicing Jew, questions the thought of three major Jewish philosophers of the 20th century--Franz Rosenzweig, Martin Buber, and Emmanuel Levinas--to help him reconcile the philosophical and religious sides of his life. An additional presence in the book is Ludwig Wittgenstein, who, although not a practicing Jew, thought about religion in ways that Putnam juxtaposes to the views of Rosenzweig, Buber, and Levinas. Putnam explains the leading ideas of each of these great thinkers, bringing out what, in his opinion, constitutes the decisive intellectual and spiritual contributions of each of them. Although the religion discussed is Judaism, the depth and originality of these philosophers, as incisively interpreted by Putnam, make their thought nothing less than a guide to life.
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie I did better when I realised its Mystery -not about having explanations for how everything works. Instead it‘s about the embrace of mystery. I don‘t mean mystery in the literary sense, as in something that will be solved by the end of the book. Nor do I mean mystery in the scientific sense, as if the right amount of evidence will help us find the answer⬇️ 1y
TheBookHippie ⬆️ mystery is not something that we do not happen to know; instead, it is something that we cannot know. The questioning part and discussion part of Judaism is this I think. 🤷🏻‍♀️ 1y
kspenmoll @TheBookHippie I like your definition/thought about mystery being something we cannot know. While I struggle to understand some of the philosophy we are reading, our discussions are invaluable. 1y
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kspenmoll @TheBookHippie I like your definition/thought about mystery being something we cannot know. While I struggle to understand some of the philosophy we are reading, our discussions are invaluable. 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll I feel exactly the same way. I learn so much from everyone. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I like that. The whole point is you can‘t ever really know, but the discussions, questions, and time spent mulling it over bring you closer to that mystery and help you define yourself for yourself. 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics Exactly, think of those who say they know god or his will without a doubt- do they really? What are they using it for? Does it bear good fruit or good seeds if growth .. to say you know god and what he‘d say is an abomination of all faith. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie 100% agree! Anyone who says that uses it for their own ends, even if their followers can‘t see it. 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie Yes. And. No. Bahahaha. I‘m constantly changing and striving to understand or use in life. 1y
kspenmoll Yes, I think it is philosophy is another way of understanding life and then that impacts my spirituality or search for it. I just found a book when I visited in the bookstores today with a friend and I realized I picked it up because of the Philosophy we‘ve been reading together. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll that looks fun! 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll @TheBookHippie I firmly believe that spirituality comes from philosophy, NOT religion. Full stop. I think the world would be a much better place if people would just realise the damage religion causes, but that doesn‘t have to threaten their faith. (edited) 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie I think it‘s a thing I‘ve been thinking about in terms lately of our divisiveness … othering creates perfect space for dictatorship and authoritarian rule.. 1y
TheBookHippie We are a collective one. And many people do not can not and will not adhere or believe it. 1y
kspenmoll @TheBookHippie I agree. Seeing as those outside our self or who do not agree with us as the other only makes us more separate. I‘ve been following DeSantis attacks on education in Florida and it‘s just beyond my comprehension but it‘s real. 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll I agree. It is so incredibly scary. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll @TheBookHippie it‘s truly terrifying. Now he‘s waxing poetic about the “benefits” of slavery? He‘s banned The Diary of Anne Frank but kept Mein Kampf? But non conservatives are the ones trying to indoctrinate children. 🙄 Sure 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie Depends right?- is it beneficial does it respect life? I think it‘s something to ponder on. I‘m still looping it through my mind! 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie Depends how you do these things or why I imagine. I live by they were hungry I fed them. If they weren‘t truly hungry and took advantage that‘s on them not me. I live my life in that manner- how it‘s seen, accepted or viewed has nothing to do with me. I am to be humble kind show mercy fight for justice and love. (Not like- that‘s a whole other thing) 🤷🏻‍♀️ so good deeds and works I think are misnomers. Either you‘re altruistic or you‘re not. 🙃 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that‘s a really valid point. Intent is more important than the conversation admits. 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie Omg can you imagine ???? However … some do not think they‘re acting in hate but in righteousness 😡🤮 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie those people are disgusting human beings and better hope there isn‘t really a hell, because if there is, they‘re going there. 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie Ah the aforementioned Talmud quote fits here —-Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now.
Love mercy now. Walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work. but neither are you free to abandon it.
- The Talmud
1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie this is so important! I seriously wish this was a greater part of the human psyche than it is, especially here in America. 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie No I don‘t think you‘re fully human. You‘re a puppet controlled by someone or something. 1y
TheBookHippie If you don‘t feel you have to -you‘ve missed out on what humanity is … 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie The reasoning and questioning of Judaism always appealed to me because NO ONE believes they know an absolute on anything really … however how to love and live day to day most Christians couldn‘t do it - there‘s no hate or power and gasp women have so much power and are totally in control of self. 😂👀😅🙃 1y
TheBookHippie Irrational folks should not be running things -but they are… most days I just want them to stop spreading their illogical Idiocracy and stand down .. there is no reasoning with some and letting them die in their ignorance is fine by me. Just do not spread it all over😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫. 1y
TheBookHippie As for your question-Obviously we‘d have a kinder better world… but I can‘t see it happening 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie same! It‘s that whole idiots in charge spreading their idiocy thing. 1y
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GingerAntics
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I find my reason getting a headache when I deal with libertarians. They claim they support personal freedom for everyone, but in reality, they value their own personal freedom above everyone else‘s. They are cool with other people‘s freedoms as long as they do not threaten their own freedom, but they are fine with their freedoms threatening the freedoms of others. 🤦🏼‍♀️🥃🙄

TheBookHippie Cheers 😵‍💫🥃🥃🥃🥃🥃 1y
TheBookHippie It‘s a circle and honestly just as bad or worse they hide in oh we want freedom actually no they don‘t. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie they really don‘t. It‘s just unmasked egocentrism parading as a political view. 1y
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GingerAntics
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This is the golden rule put another way. I guess the Christians are going to have to give up the ridiculous notion that they have a corner on the market of morality, because lord knows they are not fans of Jewish people. 🙄
#JewishPhilosophyAsAGuideToLife #HilaryPutnum #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety

TheBookHippie They take issue with altruism … 1y
TheBookHippie Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now.
Love mercy now. Walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work. but neither are you free to abandon it.
- The Talmud
1y
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GingerAntics
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kspenmoll I think intentionally. It‘s about control, separation, has nothing to do with the true message of the New Testament. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll I totally agree with that. It becomes even clearer when you start looking at what we know about the gospels excluded from official canon and why. The conclusion become quite clear, it‘s just a power play, and it‘s quite intentional. Looking at those excluded narratives, it‘s also clear to see that Christianity was never meant to be what it has become. 1y
kspenmoll @GingerAntics Yes! Years, years ago I got into reading the Gnostic Gospels & am thinking I might take another look again at some point (edited) 1y
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GingerAntics @kspenmoll I have never read them in their entirety, but I have read sections and commentaries while I was basically starting my journey away from Christianity (I didn‘t know that‘s what it was/would be at that point of course). I would love to find a good translation/collection of them and read through them. They are certainly not what you‘re taught they are growing up Christian, nor are they what most people think they are from the outside. 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll I thought of rereading those gospels as well. 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll @GingerAntics the power and control part of Christianity is what always has given me pause and it‘s so cult similar or is a cult it‘s just so atrocious what they do with scripture. Christianity is not recognisable by God I am sure. What an enormous loss to the truth .. 1y
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GingerAntics
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kspenmoll Intimacy makes the Biblical experience your own,& your personal interpretation based on your status in life, your experiences, your life view etc. which was why ( among many others)the Catholic bishops excommunicated Martin Luther when he translated the Bible into the vernacular so the common person could read it & make it their own. How frightening was that?! 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll absolutely! He was taking their power socially, spiritually, and even financially. He was levelling the playing field and heaven forbid. 🙄 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll 💯💯💯💯 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll @GingerAntics I often think of when people could first truly read and figure things out for themselves and finally own their own Bible … that shift of control terrified Christianity as well … 1y
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GingerAntics
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No wonder Christians are so bloody antisemitic. Their own behaviours a condemned in the Jewish Bible. The only way for them to handle the cognitive dissonance of their own theology and world view is to claim that their sacred texts somehow complete the Jewish sacred texts they have misappropriated.
#JewishPhilosophyAsAGuideToLife #HilaryPutnum #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety

kspenmoll Are you looking at this this in theological terms? Christian churches in general? There is so much antisemitism that has come out of the shadows lately. Is it part of the racism & sexism that exists or different because it is religious based? Not sure what I am trying to say here. The Catholic “ one true church” had the audacity of “forgiving” Jews for his death but wasn‘t Jesus a Jew? My head is spinning 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll oh god don‘t get me started on the Catholic Church and their relationship to Jewish people. I think the best way to put it (since you can be a religious or an atheist Jewish person) is that Jewish is an indigenous identity. Jewish is like Lakota or Navaho. It‘s more identity than religion, per say. I think the point at which it became merely religious is when the Christian church became a separate entity and started claiming… 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll they were somehow the fulfilment of Judaism. It would be like coming in and saying something people of northern, Western European origin are somehow the fulfilment of Lakota tradition and spirituality. It‘s pretty ridiculous once you see if from this more complete view. It‘s not just religion. It‘s tradition, language, lore, etc. It‘s part of why Christianity makes no sense the more you dig into it. 1y
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GingerAntics @kspenmoll as far as this quote, Christianity has such antisemitic roots and this seems a very valid place to begin. The Hebrew Bible is saying that being a greedy jerk brings bad things down upon you. Christians have always been this group of dominant personalities (as soon as you progress past the people who actually knew Jesus), they had to have this view of Jewish people to avoid cognitive dissonance. 1y
kspenmoll I understand what you mean in terms of Jewish as an indigenous identity. I was thinking of Jewish people I know who are practicing their religion- some are ethnically Jewish, some are not, but converted. Or in my sister‘s case, she married a Jewish man, & brought her children up in a Reformed temple. She did not convert but maintains string ties. 1y
kspenmoll @GingerAntics Aha! Now I am taking in what the quote / author interpretation is. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll lol yeah, this book will definitely get you. The same quote from a different person with a different ethnic and spiritual background totally changes the meaning of the sentence, really. It‘s part of what is so mind bending about this text. 1y
TheBookHippie Oops missed these! I‘ll catch up everything tonight! 1y
TheBookHippie Christianity were the Christopher Columbus of the time colonialism to religion is what they did. FOR CONTROL. There is no control in Judaism . (See you tonight! ) 1y
TheBookHippie Misappropriation is the key word here. 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie I struggle with this one. There is no such thing as an unredeemable person and it is not for us to say about what happens to an evil incarnate person(s) fights in my head as childhood sayings taught to me. We shall be redeemed from the oppressor or oppression seems a better thing to say. To say we are needing of something means we were made in error how does that fit the narrative of being made in the image of the Divine? Still thinking,obviously 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I think this ties in with how jewish scripture says nothing about being saved from sin to go to heaven, and Christianity‘s invention of original sin. Messiah was supposed to free the jewish people from oppressive political regimes (maybe America needs a real Messah immediately), but wasn‘t about an inherent, created flaw within people. I don‘t think people need to be redeemed from anything. People need to freed from oppresion. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie people need to be freed from the worst of humanity. The best of humanity needs to be freed from the worst of humanity, maybe. It seems to me that this idea of redemption has caused a situation where “redeemed people” feel like they can let the worst of themselves run rampant because they‘re “covered in the blood of Jesus.” 🙄 Sorry, but that creeps and grosses me out. 1y
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie they don‘t seem concerned with any of the other, real blood they‘re covered in. They don‘t value life. There status as the redeemed is the only thing they value, and they‘re using it to justify their worst behaviours. 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics YES. Freed from oppression, oppressors … which Jesus was killed for, trying to show we need to live by love, justice shalom. Not what the evangelicals made up 😵‍💫 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie oh girl, they sure have made up a lot, haven‘t they? 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics unreal amounts 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie just when you think you‘ve obviously reached the bottom of the barrel, BAM, there‘s just another layer under that one. I‘m not sure there is a bottom to the barrel anymore. 1y
ravenlee Maybe on an individual level, like redemption for whatever we‘ve done ourselves that wasn‘t what it should have been. But yeah, the whole original sin thing is BS and just a weapon for domination. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee totally agree. It‘s not a Jewish concept and it wasn‘t even invented until the 3rd blood century CE. So how is this how god made the world. 🙄 1y
GingerAntics So sorry, I haven‘t even read the next chapter. My plan is to read through after my shower, and then I‘ll post right away.
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll
1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics No worries I‘ve been battling migraines all week I just started it! So no hurry🙃♥️ 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie something must be rolling through the Midwest. I started a migraine Monday that took me until Wednesday to kick, and my head has been toying with the idea of starting up again. I hope your head gets better soon. 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie I don‘t think so. If it ends we would live in total control of someone or something. It‘s the philosophers right or wrong that keep freedom alive. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie so if trump buys a second presidency. I hadn‘t thought of it in those terms, but it makes sense. 1y
ravenlee Philosophy is a search for the important answers, which are pretty much unanswerable or the answers change. So philosophy kind of can‘t be “done,” I think. And we, as a people, are unlikely to just stop asking those questions. Unless we change fundamentally, I don‘t think so. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee true, pretty much every human in history has asked these questions. I think the answers are pretty personal, too. Someone may find an answer that works for them, that feels like the final answer to them, but then that same answer leaves someone else with more questions. 1y
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kspenmoll
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Finished the second section. WOW. There are parts I marked with big ? But also parts that I understood enough to feed my soul.

TheBookHippie I just am rereading it through with my notes 🙃 lot of good nuggets in there! 1y
kspenmoll @TheBookHippie I need to review my notes from the Into & R & W chapter before I can go back to questions. Hope to be finished by 7/2😀 so many “ nuggets”!!! (edited) 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll I am enjoying it very much! 1y
GingerAntics This one is definitely intense. 1y
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GingerAntics
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kspenmoll I think there are/were different religions that were prominent during different eras, depending on where u lived in the world, & what century. 1y
TheBookHippie Mythology 😂😂😂😂😂👀 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll I agree with you. 1y
TheBookHippie But no. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll @TheBookHippie I agree with both of you. I certainly don‘t think it was ever any one religion. Perhaps there were certain traits common among them that we have sadly lost on our modern religious climate. 1y
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GingerAntics
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kspenmoll YES!!! 1y
TheBookHippie Good god yes. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll @TheBookHippie 🤣😂🤣 I love the simplicity of the answers here. 1y
ravenlee To live, yes. To exist, no. Just coast. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee oh, I like that distinction. Yes! 1y
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GingerAntics
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kspenmoll According to Putman,Rosenzweig,is not attacking wonder. “…wonder arises and dissolves in the flow of life itself.” The philosopher cannot release his/her wonder into life- the philosopher views all outside - outside life & its demands. Wonder whether it be born of thinking, marveling, or just pain in awe of something, to me is essential to life & brings joy to us. We desperately need to feel those pickets of joy. I felt that deeply as my son& I🔽 (edited) 1y
kspenmoll 🔼 hiked the Mountain Laurel Trail last week- such a canopy of flowers, massive banks of them as far as the eye could see- we both felt deeply & spoke of the awe, wonder, & joy we experienced. (edited) 1y
TheBookHippie We desperately need wonder and philosophers should wonder and be in awe of the unknown and unobtainable knowledge. Religion can kill wonder. Spirituality can thrive in wonder. 1y
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GingerAntics @kspenmoll I would agree with that. I think if you open yourself to that awe and wonder, you can feel it. I definitely think so many people have shut themselves off from that feeling. I‘m not sure the wonderless life is worth living. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I like the differentiation of religion and spirituality. I think philosophy almost stems from wonder, and leads to further wonder. I definitely think true spirituality and wonder are irrevocably linked. Religion seems to kill anything it can‘t control, wonder being the first thing to go. 1y
ravenlee I think philosophy could be considered systematized wonder. So could science, actually. But too often religion shuts down wonder altogether (it raises the “wrong” questions and makes people question established ideas and people in power). I like the dichotomy of spirituality vs religion. 1y
ravenlee Religious folks would do well to remember they should feel awe in the presence of an inscrutable god, rather than pretending to be the experts on unknowable subjects. A little more of the Old Testament Jehovah and a little less of the “personal Jesus” buddy idea. 😆 (edited) 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee I think they certainly need a little more of the whole thing. Remember, this is the document that tells them to love everyone, not discriminate against them and outlaw them because they‘re not your jam. 🤬 Don‘t get me started on the religious nuts this week 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee I like the idea of philosophy and science being types of systematised wonder. 🧡🧡🧡 1y
ravenlee @GingerAntics yeah, the religious nuts - but it‘s not just this week. I keep thinking it can‘t get much worse, and yet… 1y
ravenlee But don‘t forget the twisty thing about “love the sinner, hate the sin,” which allows them to continue with their discriminatory crap while pretending to be full of Christ‘s love. 1y
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GingerAntics
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kspenmoll Although we inherit thoughts & ideas, I think, especially as adults we can develop & trust our own ideas & opinions. Again, there are those that do not think but jump on a popular bandwagon such as Moonies, Trumpets. 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll word. 😵‍💫 1y
TheBookHippie To be free thinkers and allow our thoughts and opinions to be changed. 1y
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I like that. You give up agency when you insist you don‘t need to or shouldn‘t change your thoughts when better information becomes available. This is where we find people who think the world is flat. These idiots didn‘t have any staying power before social media. 🤦🏼‍♀️ 1y
ravenlee Agency as a thinker comes with responsibility both to use your mind (not just tune out and blindly accept what you‘re told) and to develop it by exposure to new ideas and perspectives. Not necessarily to adopt those ideas, but to consider them carefully. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee 100% agree… there is too much of this blind faith, adopt what anyone seemingly in authority tells me going on these days. (edited) 1y
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GingerAntics
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kspenmoll Maybe a scientific truth? But science changes rapidly like everything else in our lives now. People can change but they have to want to & commit to change. Some people do not want to change themselves or do not even SEE that change is good- they don‘t think about it or even know change exists & can happen.the status quo is fine. 1y
TheBookHippie Certain trump folks ….. I digress. The desire for control power money remains unchanged as does those of us striving to fight it. There are no certainties and everything can be changed or change but the will may not allow it. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll oh my god, I can‘t even with those people. Tradition is great and certainly has its place, but that doesn‘t mean you can never journey beyond that. 1y
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie all these people saying we need to get rid of books that have been in school curricula for decades, but we can‘t let history lessons evolve because “this has always been taught this way.” 🙄 WHICH IS IT?! It‘s always been this way, so why change; or I can‘t believe we ever taught this garbage? You can‘t have it both ways. 1y
ravenlee @GingerAntics @TheBookHippie exactly! “Our history is fine the way it‘s ALWAYS (at least for a while) been don‘t touch it!” and simultaneously “we need to get rid of all this old junk!” All in the name of making kids feel bad, when we know it‘s their parents who don‘t want to feel bad. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee exactly! How can you let your kids read anything about antisemitism in America or nazism/neonazism when you‘re running around in your 6 million wasn‘t enough T-shirts at home. 🙄 If REAL history offends you, then I‘m sorry (sorry, not sorry) you NEED to be 🤬ing offended. 1y
ravenlee @GingerAntics exactly. If the truth hurts, you should be hurting. 1y
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GingerAntics
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kspenmoll The whole butter essence had my brain going in circles… Makes it seem absurd! Putnam says that both W & R reject the search for essences- later when speaking of wonder, Putman says that their attack on essences is not an attack on wonder. I am not at all sure what this means. 1y
TheBookHippie Ha the butter. I love butter. That and the hot water. I thought if it as an elaborate game of telephone; or interpretation of events. I think the biggest problem with religion is piecing out scripture and using it as a weapon of telling the story for gain of controlling its people. Essence of the true religion seems to have been long lost by what man has done. You would have to undo every interpretation and then we‘d still have questions. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll I feel like that would be an attack on wonder. The butter thing did get absurd. There certainly had to have been a better example he could have chosen. I don‘t think anyone can ever fully understand the essence, but it can certainly be discovered in bits and pieces. Isn‘t the point of wonder and life that the essence of a think keeps changing and evolving? 1y
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie isn‘t that the point though? People are so gung-ho for certainties, but what is the point if there are no more questions? I think that was the original motivation for the interpretations that have lead us through this rabbit hole to the madness we know today. 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics to question is the point- yes. When we stop questioning and believe certainty is when the soul dies IMO. 👀 the journey ends at the end of WONDER and you‘re dead before you die. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie then do you think it is possible to resuscitate the soul? Can one lose their wonder, join a religion of absolutes and buy in, then discover they‘ve been lied to and reawaken that questioning and wondering within themselves? Or do you think it just goes dormant because the person has never dulling bought in? 1y
ravenlee I think the butter thing was supposed to illustrate how quickly we can devolve into ridiculousness, when we focus on the wrong parts of the questions. Trying to understand the essence is a side quest, and it can distract from the important stuff. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee it did that quite well. I picked up on the ridiculousness of it, but not that being the actual point. Hm. That is thought provoking. 1y
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GingerAntics
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kspenmoll I think neither reveal truth. But both can bring meaning to our existence, our humanity, our lives. 1y
TheBookHippie Truth is up for debate what was true isn‘t true now and what is true now will not be later. There is no certain truth and that is what upsets folks and makes them follow cults and set religions. Both religion and philosophy can bring meaning depending on how you use it and as long as it isn‘t presented as certainty. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll @TheBookHippie I agree there may be nothing that reveals truth because it‘s constantly changing, but also because it‘s individual in a lot of situations. The sky is blue and the sky is up is true for everyone (accept maybe an incredibly drunk person), but there isn‘t much meaning in that. I think, in a similar way, meaning is individual. There are as many meanings to a situation or life itself was their are people living. 1y
ravenlee Philosophy is peeling back the onion. There are layers upon layers, none of which fundamentally change what the onion is. Also, there are tears 😆 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee 🤣😂🤣 I agree on all counts. 1y
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GingerAntics
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kspenmoll Faith can breed hope. Both are so essential when we see/live in our broken world that lacks love. Can we be seeds that germinate faith & hope by our embracing faith & hope in a humanity that can be motivated by greed rather than generosity, darkness rather than light? Can we combat those forces in our small communities? Can these communities link up & spread? 1y
TheBookHippie Faith in the knowledge that what we hope is true, that love is the way and that is what is. We have to cling to faith in order to keep questioning I think. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I like that. Faith in knowledge is the most important thing, and has to exist to keep people asking questions, even if they are hard questions. 1y
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GingerAntics @kspenmoll I definitely agree about hope. I think when we lose hope is when it seems the most logical to give up. Keeping hope alive is what keeps us from giving up. That idea that the world can be a little better when we leave it than when we entered it, or that our children‘s lives can be a little better than ours were, etc. 1y
ravenlee I like @kspenmoll @TheBookHippie ‘s ideas, faith in hope and knowledge. How about faith in discovery, in curiosity? I‘m feeling Trekkie: our continuing mission, to seek out new life, new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before. That kind of faith appeals to me. 1y
kspenmoll @ravenlee I love your ideas! Faith in discovery, curiosity - I would never of thought in these terms - this is why I love discussions! 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee YES! I love that mindset! I cannot see Americans today leading to Starfleet on our shores in the next few hundred years. I don‘t see Alaska producing a commander in the next few hundred years either. If first contact is supposed to happen in 40 years (technically slightly less now), a whole hell of a lot is going to have to change, or the Vulcans are going to turn their little butts right around and just cordon us off from everyone else. (edited) 1y
ravenlee @GingerAntics I‘ve had this theory for a long time now. Bear with me: Earth is the West Virginia backwoods of the universe. All the sentient civilizations give us wide berth because we‘re so backward and scary. Whenever someone is feeling adventurous and a little foolhardy, they come mess around with humans - but then they wipe their memories to avoid getting in trouble. Hence all the mystery around alien abductions. 1y
ravenlee One of my supports for this theory is our tendency in this country to put aircraft up on display on pylons (the base we‘re stationed at has what we call the BUFF-on-a-stick)=old cars on blocks in the front yard. 1y
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kspenmoll I think you can if that is your pathway. You need knowledge to accept “acknowledge” the sacred be it God, nature, humanity & the world. Especially if it generates love, & living that love. I know this is a deeper question than maybe I am treating it but there are scientists that are religious as well ad those that need concrete evidence to believe. 1y
TheBookHippie I think for some extremely intelligent it‘s hard as they are use to having “all” the answers and proofs. I love knowledge and I have always been spiritual and I‘ve always loved Judaism. However I loathe religion per se. There are parts of Protestant hymns from my childhood I love dearly but I loathe Christianity as a rule. I think the original heart of the gospel -love and service is the right way to live, but I didn‘t need it to be me. ⬇️ 1y
TheBookHippie I love old church buildings of all faiths primarily because it represents hope for me . (The new amphitheaters just no😵‍💫🤮🤢) what I mean to say is I think it‘s many faucets but mystery and questioning and being okay with no answer is the only way. I think it takes a well rounded person to know that. Open and intelligent and at peace with the unknown of the Divine. Choosing what you need to live in that is probably essential. 1y
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GingerAntics @kspenmoll I think this is a valid point and perhaps the first steps toward the deeper meanings and layers of this question. Do you think someone can have a faithless path? I feel like everyone‘s got faith in something, weather that thing is positive, creative, life giving, loving or negative, destructive, deadly and hateful. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @kspenmoll I wonder if that is hinting at the idea of the one historical religion? This idea of faith in (ourselves?) not having all the answers and the wonder to keep exploring because you never know if you might find an answer no one knew about before. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I have that same thing with old hymns and old church buildings, too. I currently really struggle with the old hymns thing. I was a chorister growing up and have fond memories from that, favourite songs, etc. I struggle with those now that I find so much abhorrent in the teachings they represent and sometimes even the lyrics. Kids can‘t read Anne Frank, but they can be forced to sing some of these horrendous lyrics? 1y
ravenlee Maybe faith, not religion. Religion as a system of beliefs, laws, mores must, almost by definition, be rigid. Faith can be fluid, and can coexist with love of knowledge. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee agreed. Religion is far too rigid and far too sure of itself to ever allow true knowledge, let alone wisdom, to enter into the equation. 1y
ravenlee That‘s why so many thinkers were labelled heretics and persecuted, martyred, or exiled. 1y
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kspenmoll I think now they can be reconciled depending on the person. But back during the Scientific Revolution & & Enlightenment & later the Renaissance the Church was torturing & executing people in horrific ways. Science threatened the Church leaders Big Time. (edited) 1y
TheBookHippie I think it can, however I agree with @kspenmoll it depends on the person people and their religion, look at climate change and the church ignores it. COVID too. Science threatens them because science is ever changing and fluid. They have to have absolutes and concrete things which is why evangelicals but it isn‘t true. Nothing is stagnant. But the want for control seems to be 😵‍💫😅. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll the renaissance came before the enlightenment (in fact it sort of lead to the enlightenment from an intellectual history perspective), but I get what you‘re saying. Just as today, science is a threat to church leaders. The more things change, the more they stay the same. 1y
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie oofda, totally agree! It‘s that threat of something disproving their carefully crafted absolutes (like the earth being the centre of the universe, the earth being round, or that we are destroying the earth). Christians have always sort of hated new knowledge of the earth from the beginning. Hm 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie maybe because when what they have always said about the earth has turned out to be false, there is always a new shift, a reformation if you will, and their credibility goes down a notch because they fought against it for so long even in the face of absolute proof. 1y
ravenlee I think enlightened religious faith is the best kind. Enlightenment ≠ atheism, at least not always. Having clear-headed faith means being open to both the divine/miraculous and the scientific, and nurturing both sides of existence. It also protects against blind dogmatism and intolerance. 1y
ravenlee An enlightened person can accept that they don‘t know everything, can adapt to new discoveries and information, can have faith in a divine force that powers and permeates everything according to a logical system. There‘s room for humility and curiosity, unlike in rigid religious codes that stamp out those traits as a matter of course. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee I 100% agree with you on that one. I think enlightenment and faith can coexist. I think enlightenment and religion isn‘t quite possible. 1y
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Now that Putnam has set the scene, how are you feeling about this book. Are you feeling ready or does this book seem more daunting now?
#JewishPhilosophyAsAGuideToLife #HilaryPutnum #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie I‘m ready!!!! I‘ve missed deep diving! 1y
kspenmoll I too am ready but know that I struggle with philosophical concepts yet love exploring them with you all. (edited) 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll I think that‘s the point of life, isn‘t it? I am always weary of people who claim they have it all figured out. They tend to be the folks with the most tightly closed minds (and the highest rates of bigotry the way things are going these days). 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I do love a good deep dive. 1y
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I felt like Putnum was somehow speaking from inside of my brain, talking about this really logical, physical part of her, and this other more spiritual side of her. I am excited to see where this adventure takes us.
#JewishPhilosophyAsAGuideToLife #HilaryPutnum #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

kspenmoll Putnam‘s predicament of how could she reconcile 2 divergent parts of her inner self seems to be the thesis in a way of this book, so she is certainly viewing religion as personal. I think I alluded to my own predicament with the previous question. But I also am hoping to grow through the reading of this book as I am invested already. I am open to refection & change. (edited) 1y
ravenlee I will be starting this book and trying to catch up…later. We had a storm blow through Thursday night-Friday morning and knock out our power, and while part of our neighborhood is back up our street isn‘t. We‘re bouncing between friends‘ houses and a hotel, hubby‘s workplace, in search of A/C, with no idea of when we‘ll be able to stay at home again! Temps in the mid-90s with “real feel” around 115-120, plus more storms every day! See y‘all later. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee oh my god! Hang in there. I hope they get to your street sooner than later! We are SO not on your priority list right now. When and if you get back to us on this book is no big deal either way. We will miss you while you are gone, but will be so happy when you can make it back. 🧡🧡🧡 (edited) 1y
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TheBookHippie @ravenlee oh no!!!!! Hope you keep cool!!! 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll I‘ve also felt it was personal and a relational thing with your spirit. That being said isn‘t it interesting how much we take in that we don‘t realise until we look at it. I‘m always happy to learn and always amazed at how much I don‘t know and need to change perspective. Reflection is so good! @GingerAntics 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I have that same thing. I definitely have a war within between my rational mind and my spiritual mind. I‘m always stumbling upon new things I hadn‘t considered or hadn‘t thought of from a particular angle. 1y
ravenlee Thanks @GingerAntics @TheBookHippie it‘s been an ordeal! There are two utility trucks on my street right now, so 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻 1y
ravenlee I‘m working on catching up, though it may be a couple days yet. I need to point out, though, that Hilary Putnam is a man. Among other places, he taught at Harvard from 1965-2000. @kspenmoll @TheBookHippie @GingerAntics 1y
TheBookHippie @ravenlee ha ya I told @GingerAntics or she found out by reading my IG 😂😅 1y
kspenmoll @ravenlee After referring to Hilary as a she, I looked him up & did discover who he truly was. Shows you that I only know of female Hilary‘s. Not very astute given the times we live in. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll don‘t feel bad. I thought this was a she author, too, until @thebookhippie posted about him on IG including a picture. lol You definitely weren‘t alone in that one. 1y
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@TheBookHippie and I were just talking earlier today about how there is something fun about struggling with, grappling with, sitting with difficult or challenging ideas. When I read this part, I couldn‘t help but think about our conversation, or how this will play out in our little philosophy group.
#JewishPhilosophyAsAGuideToLife #HilaryPutnum #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety

TheBookHippie 🙃♥️ 1y
kspenmoll I agree with that statement as I am “ general public”- 1y
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Notice how she said religion was a PERSONAL matter. She also said it was a communal experience, but that doesn‘t mean it is any less personal. If someone else were to write these lectures, the quote would be “religion is a political matter” instead. 🙄 I wish we could return to this personal part of religion. I fully believe religion is becoming nothing because of this removal of the personal nature of it.

GingerAntics @kspenmoll I love that we both chose this quote. 1y
TheBookHippie Exactly! It‘s a RELATIONSHIP not a RELIGION. Per say… your spirit your relationship with it and the Divine. 1y
TheBookHippie It‘s powerful- the statement. 1y
kspenmoll For me religion/spirituality had to be personal as I grew. Part of it for me was that as female,in my college years I started understanding that religion (in my case Catholicism)seemed to be the realm of men, not women. So I began to explore, in hopes of finding my own personal path. 1y
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First sentence of the Introduction. I am intrigued by this turn we are taking in philosophy. #deadphilosophersSociety #philosophy #adventuresinphilosophy

Way behind in my buddy reading as it was exams in the HS as well as it‘s last day for students yesterday. I just go in Monday for clean up & am out for the summer!!!!!👏🏻👏🏻🎉🎉

TheBookHippie Monday starts easy summer schedule for me as well and I‘m also on the catch up! 1y
Chrissyreadit i‘m just doing the best i can and enjoying the comments and posts…. 1y
kspenmoll @Chrissyreadit I am behind- so much to take in so no worries please! 1y
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TheBookHippie Looks good! 1y
kspenmoll I am excited about reading this. 1y
ravenlee Woohoo! Let‘s do this (in a few weeks)! 1y
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kspenmoll Found it! 1y
ravenlee Mine arrived earlier this week! 1y
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie it works when it‘s in the post. I don‘t get it. 2y
GingerAntics According to Apple Books, this is 136 pages. 2y
TheBookHippie 😂😂😂😂😵‍💫🤷🏻‍♀️ 2y
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