I wonder how accurate this claim is, because I am almost 40, I‘ve hand many nightmares, night terrors, and nocturnal panic attacks (thanks Wil Wheaton for that term) in my life, but I have never had a dream like she describes. Maybe it‘s just me. She would have me believe it is, but I‘m curious about evidence for this.
#ClarissaPinkolaEstes #WomenWhoRunWithTheWolves #dreams #RiteOfPassage
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit @CaroPi, @Cuilin, @TheBookHippie, @Deblovestoread, @zezeki, @BookwormAHN, @PathfinderNicole, @ravenlee, @dabbe, @ElizaMarie, @ImperfectCJ, @nanuska_153, @nosufoxes, @lillinblue 3d
lil1inblue I'm 45 and have had all the nightmares and terrors you describe. I've had some healing lucid-like dreams about specific people. But also never what she described in the book. But my terrors and nightmares started when I was 7 and are very much trauma related, so I wonder if that has something to do with it. 3d
GingerAntics @lil1inblue yeah, I‘ve had a recurring weird dream for as long as I can remember, and it‘s trauma related. So I have no clue what this lady is talking about. I‘m sitting here thinking, what are you supporting sources? Thanks. lol 2d
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ElizaMarie @lil1inblue I am curious also about how Trauma interferes. I have also had a variety of nightmares/terrors, mostly r/t to the trauma I had experienced. 2d
lil1inblue @GingerAntics @ElizaMarie First and foremost - sending virtual hugs! 🫂 Secondly, now I'm waiting here hoping someone who has had this dream will fill us in! 🤣🫠 2d
kspenmoll Can you tell me page # this quote is from? Thx! 2d
GingerAntics @ElizaMarie @lil1inblue it‘s feeling pretty universal NOT to have this dream at the moment. I definitely think we need more information about trauma response in this process. 2d
Bookwomble The claim of universality is a red flag for me. Not even the actual universal experiences of birth and death are the same for everybody, much less dream experiences. She negates her claim by saying it would be "remarkable if..", not "impossible that...". I wouldn't vex yourself overly much about a crass generalisation. And, I'm bookending @lil1inblue 's virtual hug, if you wish to accept it ?❤️ 2d
GingerAntics @kspenmoll well, on my phone it‘s at the bottom of 183 into 184. On my iPad it will be different! I can check that later today, and later than that my hard copy at home. It might be easier to tell you it‘s near the end of chapter 2, the second sentence after the heading “The Dark Man in Women‘s Dreams.” 2d
kspenmoll @GingerAntics That is enough- thanks for info. I know where you mean! 2d
Chrissyreadit @GingerAntics @lil1inblue @ElizaMarie @kspenmoll @Bookwomble I am not an expert in Jungian psychology- but there are aspects of this to clarify through a somatic lens for anyone who is interested: 1. Dreams themselves are semi archetypal- our brain uses information through a lens it feels connected to to process information. It does not make sense some of the time- and we do not always remember our dreams. I read the section just now but not the 2d
Chrissyreadit chapter so my information is through a somatic developmental lens. She is talking about how women process their sense of safety within themselves. A comprable dream is any one where you felt helpless. the goal of internal work is that the psyche develops the tools, support and information it needs to feel safe and confident. In the Estes lens she suggests that all women experience a dream where they feel helpless or thwarted or harmed- and by age 2d
Chrissyreadit 25 is roughly the developmental stage from dependence to independence (late adolescence to adulthood). Psychological developmental theory is that we all go through stages of development- Jungian theory has an emphasis on dream work to process it. The reality is we all dream- but we do not all understand or interpret dreams the same way. I would not consider it quite so literally- it is an archetype- rather recognizing that dreams in which you 2d
Chrissyreadit felt powerless were meant to help you identify and find your strength and use your fear to find safety. Trauma will completely impact dreams. The brain wants us to find paths of safety from literal danger compared to existential danger. I look forward to hearing all of your continued thoughts- i hope this makes sense- and feel free to add your perspective. 2d
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit the psychological development theory makes sense to me… I guess I‘ve never been into too much of Young. I just couldn‘t get through his writings. I guess I was just put off by her description. I think yours was much better. If that‘s the case, I‘ve been having this dream since I was in preschool, so maybe I‘m still off. 2d
GingerAntics @Bookwomble It certainly felt like an over generalisation, even over simplification. If this is really her dissertation, I have no clue how she managed to get her PhD. 2d
DrSabrinaMoldenReads I am a psychologist who never heard of this and never had the dream 2d
DrSabrinaMoldenReads @GingerAntics LOL Exactly!! 2d
GingerAntics @DrSabrinaMoldenReads is Jungian theory used much these days? I feel like it‘s rather dated in that sense. Maybe I‘m wrong, though. 2d
DrSabrinaMoldenReads @GingerAntics It IS a personality THEORY which has its points but it is not a form of psychotherapy that is used. These days therapists use “evidenced-based” treatment and that is certainly not. 2d
DrSabrinaMoldenReads I did not like this book when came out many , many years ago. A couple of my friends were reading it. It seemed made up to appeal to a certain audience because it was supposed to speak about women, and as you said, there is too much generalization. It did not resonate with me. Like I said, I have never heard of that term or such a dream and I go way back in the day. (edited) 2d
lil1inblue @chrissyreadit Ok, now it's making more sense. I was interpreting the word "initiatory" in a different (and incorrect in this context) way. So I've been having my version of this dream since I was 7. ?? 2d
Chrissyreadit @DrSabrinaMoldenReads @GingerAntics Evidence based practice recognizes that sleep cycles and dreams are vital parts of mental health. The way humans make meaning and feel safe differs by culture- but still important to recognize in all evidence based therapy as a practice. Another example is the book![[tagged book]](https://image.librarything.com/pics/litsy_webpics/icon_taggedBook@3x.png)
The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down: A Hmong Child, Her American Doctors, and the Collision of Two Cultures 2d
The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down: A Hmong Child, Her American Doctors, and the Collision of Two Cultureslil1inblue @GingerAntics I remember reading a little Jung in college, but it was for lit classes. 🤣 2d
Chrissyreadit Her use of jungian psychology and archetypes is what was known and understood- but i personally do not believe in discounting foundations in understanding. Today we use Parts Theory- and those parts have archetypal meaning/identity. We use the stories we tell ourselves to support the decisions we make and are living in real time where false narratives are being accepted as true. I have not read enough of this book to offer an opinion on this work 2d
Chrissyreadit But the lens she is offering is meaningful because stories and the way we make sense of them are not only meaningful but still used today. Specifically consider how the Bible is used with both literal and figurative meanings and at times weaponized. 2d
TheBookHippie I think a point to mention here is something the departed Leslie Jordon would say about church”If it wasn‘t for me I just left it under the pew, because someone else must need to hear it. I just took what I needed for me.” In books like this that‘s true too. Use what speaks to you. Leave the rest for someone who needs it. Is she generalising -perhaps but there‘s some really good things in here that have helped countless people. That‘s wonderful. 2d
Chrissyreadit @lil1inblue I would say in this lens it indicates you had to become independent or face taking care of yourself through a need for safety and what are the ways you found safety….. 2d
DrSabrinaMoldenReads @Chrissyreadit I agreed that it is a personality THEORY that has its good points. But it is a theory. Not proven by research. I get worried about people just relying on such when they have serious problems such as suicidal thoughts which do necessitate evidenced-based treatment . I‘ll bow out here though B/C I have a different perspective based on my experience of providing treatment over many years. I do love personality theories though. (edited) 2d
DrSabrinaMoldenReads @TheBookHippie How do you know it‘s helped “countless people”? 2d
GingerAntics @DrSabrinaMoldenReads I‘m REALLY struggling with this book. I‘m just not getting into it and I‘m not get the same feeling as other people, it feels like. I think it‘s horrible, repetitive writing and total BS. It‘s about women‘s empowerment, but somehow there is always a man to the rescue in the end and she‘s really stretching that to be “women‘s inner strength.” Yeah, I don‘t think anyone ever thought that before you, lady. 2d
DrSabrinaMoldenReads @Chrissyreadit I have been a clinical psychologist for over 40 years and do not do dream interpretation and do not know anyone who does. It was not part of my graduate school training. I know folks love this book and like I said I will bow out. I am glad that you find it helpful. For reasons, it‘s not for a person like me. (edited) 2d
GingerAntics @lil1inblue lit class? Hm. I read a tiny bit in psychology, but he was very verbose and it was mostly like “hey, this is the history of the science so we‘re just touching upon it. 2d
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that 2d
DrSabrinaMoldenReads @GingerAntics Generally agree with you! 🥰 2d
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit like narrative therapy. That makes sense. I always thought that was about personal narratives, but I suppose personal narratives are informed by cultural stories. 2d
TheBookHippie @DrSabrinaMoldenReads many women I‘ve mentored and my sister in law, many teachers I work with. 2d
GingerAntics @DrSabrinaMoldenReads the author does make these sweeping claims and I‘m like, show your work! Although, if you go to any review section of this book on any website, there seem to be two camps “oh this is so groundbreaking, how revolutionary” and “this is drivel.” 2d
TheBookHippie @DrSabrinaMoldenReads to add over 30 years since this book has been out still women mention it as helping them when speaking to me after I give a talk or speech about surviving multiple traumas and rape. Not every book is for every person and not every practice is either. Doesn‘t mean it‘s not valid. 2d
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics update copy probably helps the last third of my book has “proofs” I think it‘s this is one woman‘s theory of how to heal. Is there anything for me, or someone I know. I just leave it at that. Somethings in here have truly helped people and for that I am grateful. I‘m rereading it after decades and some of it I agree with some I think well that‘s not for me and I turn the page 🤣🙃😅. 2d
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie a lot of people do feel this has really touched them and done something for them. I get that. I‘m just not entirely sure I‘m one of those people. I feel like I‘m betraying the home team or something in saying that. I‘m just not buying into her interpretations, because I know those are not the initial intent by any means and she‘s acting like these have always been the true, hidden meaning. 2d
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics oh I get that. I don‘t always agree either. But you know I don‘t think anything is an end all be all. 1d
TheBookHippie @DrSabrinaMoldenReads not heal, helped. I too know what heals. 1d
GingerAntics @DrSabrinaMoldenReads I can honestly say I wouldn‘t want a younger me reading this. I would have been so worried “oh, I didn‘t have this dream, what‘s wrong with me.” Maybe it needs an update. Maybe a whole new revamp. I‘m just not sure. I agree, this isn‘t going to help people in any statistical way. Maybe because the people who find this helpful aren‘t usually in study cohorts? I don‘t know. 1d
TheBookHippie @DrSabrinaMoldenReads it‘s been my life. 1d
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics definitely a grain of salt fits here. If it truly helped people who am I to say anything. I did read it when it came out and didn‘t think much either way. I‘m rereading it seeing what people say helped them. It‘s very interesting to me. 1d
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I agree “All and only I know the secret “ two things I have issues with. Clearly 🫠 1d
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie okay, that does make me feel better. Totally agree on the “only I have a secret” and “all.” That just sounds like a cult leader to me. 1d
GingerAntics @DrSabrinaMoldenReads that‘s what I was thinking. People are reading this and oh it‘s changed my life. I‘ve healed myself. What have you, and in reality they need help and never seek it out. Again, this was written in a much different time, so perhaps when this was written that was the norm. 1d
TheBookHippie @DrSabrinaMoldenReads I believe in a combination of things. Initially books saved my life. Especially as a child it was my only option. So I don‘t discount it in others. Not all therapies work for all people. I agree it is important to find what works for you. I don‘t believe in talk therapy, I do believe in ASMR -for myself. Talk therapy works for some. It‘s all nuance. Anytime anyone says this is the only way- there‘s a problem. 1d
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics EXACTLY and all religious trauma survival people say NO ! 🙃 1d
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I will 100% agree with this. I‘ve had to many bad experiences with talk therapy to trust it now. Don‘t even get me started on the non-diagnosis of “codependent.” Just another way the cult of AA has infiltrated the rest of our lives. I am so interested in narrative therapy, honestly. I‘ve been writing original works since I was 7, so I feel like it‘s right up my alley and would make more sense for me. 1d
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics when this was written nothing was talked about at all around here, especially for women -I think that is what is missing in this equation ... it was a whole new thought. 1d
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I agree. 💯💯💯💯 1d
TheBookHippie @DrSabrinaMoldenReads there‘s many new studies on why it does not work for some people. It does however save many lives including many young people I have worked with. For that I‘m grateful. I just don‘t think it should ever be said it‘s all or the only thing that works. 1d
TheBookHippie @DrSabrinaMoldenReads @GingerAntics at the end of the day books do save peoples lives. It‘s an important tool. This is this persons narrative. I liken it to if I wrote my narrative. It would help some, anger some and lots of arguing would happen. 🙃 1d
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie and we would all cackle at the arguing! It could be great entertainment!!! Shall we call a publisher? 🤣😂🤣 1d
TheBookHippie @DrSabrinaMoldenReads it‘s not a personal attack. I know you take it that way, but it has harmed people. We‘d have just as many stories of the harm. Like anything else that‘s just life. It‘s why it‘s important to find a good therapist, a good therapy and hope it all works. How very fortunate your clients found you. Not everyone has been so fortunate. 1d
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics well it is written and almost finished. 👀👀👀 1d
GingerAntics @DrSabrinaMoldenReads I tried to read that book. I couldn‘t stand it. It was more of this “I have all answers.” 🙄 And it was just AA cult drivel. It‘s not in the DSM. It never has been. Can my experiences please be taken seriously and not written off? I greatly respect your profession. I think it is vital and underused still today. I just don‘t think one type of therapy is the answer for everyone. Some people do amazing with talk therapy. 1d
GingerAntics @DrSabrinaMoldenReads some people don‘t. That is why there are many other types of therapy. Different people need different things, because every brain is different. I thought that was the point of the profession. It‘s why it‘s always been an interest of mine, and why I almost joined the profession (and often wish I had lately). 1d
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!! I can‘t wait to read it!!! 1d
GingerAntics @DrSabrinaMoldenReads then I don‘t know what the argument is/hurt feelings are about. We‘re agreeing, then. 1d
TheBookHippie @DrSabrinaMoldenReads it helps some people not all people was my point. 1d
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I‘ll put you top of the list. 1d
TheBookHippie @DrSabrinaMoldenReads mine just retired AT 80. 1d
TheBookHippie @DrSabrinaMoldenReads enjoy your grandkids. Mine is coming tonight as well. 1d
TheBookHippie @DrSabrinaMoldenReads my therapist didn‘t take new patients on these last 15 years. I just had tea with her every few months. Remarkable woman who felt the same as you. 1d
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY THANK YOU!!! I feel so honoured! 1d
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie okay, those sound like the best therapy appointments ever!!! 1d
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics they were. 1d
lil1inblue @GingerAntics It does sound weird, but yes, I read a small amount of Jung for a lit class. I don't remember specifics, but what we read was mostly about archetypes. Then we moved on to how they show up in literature, etc. It was interesting from that perspective. 1d
lil1inblue @Chrissyreadit Oooh. That's something to think about. 🎯 Thank you! 💓🫂💓 1d
GingerAntics @lil1inblue that makes sense. I could see it be very valuable from that perspective. That actually sounds like a really fun lit class. I‘m not going to lie. 1d
Chrissyreadit @GingerAntics @thebookhippie @lil1inblue just responding with a few thoughts in this thread- this is a book that is written through the lens of Jungian theory- it is not meant to be taken a therapy or applied as therapy. There is foundational value in all of the early theorists- the greatest difference is the why we perceive our live experience the way we do. The reality is that life is hard and culture as well as trauma all play a role- but this 1d
Chrissyreadit book is a way to understand how stories and narratives share common functions and how we hear and experience stories is impacted by our lives. Just take it for an analysis on commonalities in human conditions and one way to interpret/use and empower ourselves with stories. 1d
Chrissyreadit @GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I also am not a fan of talk therapy. I believe that Somatic work is vital to our body and brain connection- and that if behavior change is needed understanding behavioral strategies that work for you (especially with ADHD) I am a fan of EMDR, and using narrative tools in therapy as well. I could go on for hours because this is my field but in the end my goal with this book is to potentially provide one more resource to 1d
Chrissyreadit support empowerment for anyone it resonates with. 1d
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit THE VOICE OF REASON, LADIES!!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Thank you! The whole conversation went sideways or backwards or into a whole other dimension there for a bit. 1d
Chrissyreadit 😘😘😘😘 1d
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit 🧡🧡🧡😘😘😘 1d
ravenlee @lil1inblue I read some Jung in my English classes in undergrad, too. It was an upper-level writing course, and we read selections from Jung, Loren Eiseley, and Maslow. Great class, but the professor was my favorite (and advisor, and now friend). 7m
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