finaldiscussion

The Women in the Castle: A Novel | Jessica Shattuck

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Open discussion here!!!!!

@Jess7 @MinDea #LitsyBuddyRead #TheWomenInTheCastle #tWitC #FinalDiscussion

MinDea Hey guys! How did everyone feel about this book once you finished it? Did anything surprise you? Did your opinion change throughout the book overall or specific to the characters? D 6y

Bklover It seemed to me like most of the actual character development took place in parts 3 and 4. (Other than Benita). Until this last part I didn‘t really have a feel for who Ania was and you see the changes in Marianne. (edited) 6y

Melissa_J I only gave this one a so-so rating. I found the way the story was told left me a little cold. I never managed to develop much more than a passing interest in the characters or their stories. I can understand why the book would appeal to others, but it really didn‘t work for me as well as I‘d hoped. 6y

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Bklover Also, once I knew who Ania was and saw who she became I didn‘t really like her very much. 6y

Pamwurtzler Overall I thought this was a good read. I was surprised that there were only 3 women in the Castle - I initially expected Marianne to find a bunch more. I ended up liking them all - they did what they thought was right to save their families. (Even Marianne with Benita). I did really like that section at the end about the book background & where she got her point of view. 6y

Bklover Overall I really liked this book. I loved the original point of view. 6y

MinDea @Pamwurtzler I also enjoyed reading the acknowledgements section. I liked learning where this book came from. I also liked this nook, but I agree @bklover, @Melissa_J I didn't like any of the characters specifically either, but by the end of the book I did enjoy the story. I just thought it was good. 6y

MinDea Was anyone surprised by Benita's suicide? Or what about Ania being a former Nazi? 6y

Sresendez12 @Pamwurtzler I thought the same thing about there only being three women! However, I feel if there had been more women, then we wouldn‘t have been able to get to know the characters as well as we did. Overall, I really loved this book! 6y

Bklover I wasn‘t surprised by Benita‘s suicide- once she left and went back home you could sort of see her story ending. She gave up. I was, on the other hand, very surprised by Anita‘s story. You would think after the remorse she felt about those babies that she would have tried to be a really good mother and she was even horrible at that! (edited) 6y

MinDea @Bklover I wonder if because of the horrible things she saw, lived with and faced that it affected her in a way where she couldn't be close to anyone, even her kids? 6y

Bklover @MinDea You are probably right. The mother bear in me is still upset with her though! 🐻 6y

MinDea Hahaha @Bklover I totally understand! 6y

MinDea I wasn't surprised by Benita's suicide, either. I am glad she finally got some "closure". Did anyone wish she had gone back to Herr Mueller? Would that have changed her fate? 6y

MinDea @Pamwurtzler @Sresendez12 I was also disappointed, at first, that the women in the castle consisted of 3 women. I thought there would be a lot more, but I agree with you @Sresendez12 that if she had more women not sure we would have been able to dive so deeply into their lives. And this book really needed that or else it would have been a bad book. She needed to put some info so you connected with the characters more. 6y

Pamwurtzler @Bklover @MinDea I was surprised about Ania being a former Nazi & running those camps. Honestly, then I couldn‘t remember how she ended up with Marianne in the first place. 6y

MinDea @Pamwurtzler I agree! How did she end up with Marianne. In the end they kept saying she lied and misrepresented herself. Did she change her name and that name was the last name of one of Marianne's husbands rebellers and so she was mistaken for a wife? 6y

Bklover I just looked it up and Ania was at a displaced persons camp and gave her name as the widow of Pietre Graberek, who was one of Albrecht‘s cohorts in the resistance. Her name was then sent to Marianne, who was disappointed that it wasn‘t someone she knew, but helped her anyway since her “husband” was a member of the resistance. @MinDea @Pamwurtzler (edited) 6y

MinDea Ohhhh... yes, that's right! Thanks @Bklover ! 6y

MinDea I did feel the book was wrapped up a little too neatly. The girl Martin was with at the orphanage was mentioned at the end, Clotilde was mentioned...it was a little too tidied up. 6y

kspenmoll I enjoyed this book. I was not surprised at Benita‘s suicide; felt she was a lost soul when Marianne prevented her marriage. While Marianne seemed to me to be over bearing & interfering, she was also generous & loyal.She did save these women‘s lives & that of their children. I was surprised about Ania‘s past re: camps but she was so closed mouthed about her past I suspected something. Characters while maybe not likable, were real. @Bklover 6y

Pamwurtzler Oh yeah . . Thanks @Bklover ! And I‘d agree @MinDea , a little too well wrapped up at the end. 6y

MinDea @kspenmoll well put. I think that is ultimately why I marked this as a pick because they were real. They would have been through so much and maybe were a little broken and rough around the edges but ultimately they did what they had to do to survive. They reacted how they though was right, whether it was or not. Marianne did save them and she brought them together and made 2 broken families whole. She was loyal, maybe to a fault 6y

BookishMe @MinDea besides loyal, her sense of righteousness seems to have overshadowed kindness in interfering with Benita's plans. 6y

BookishMe I have yet to finish the book and I noticed some spoilers. I am fine with them ;)) I started disliking Ania when her childhood was relieved and Marianne is a little trite. Benita seemed the most vulnerable or even likeable with a promise of rags to riches happiness. While I can't completely connect with the book, I learnt end of war doesn't necessarily mean end of troubles. 1/2 6y

Suelizbeth I loved Ania‘s story. We rarely see WWII stories told from the point of view of a woman identified as a Nazi, trying to reconcile her activities during the war. I really liked Ania. She was so tragically human. I liked that she and Marianne had a reconciliation of sorts. 6y

BookishMe 2/2 From having to survive each day, to salvaging their lives, with whatever baggage, is a huge struggle. 6y

MinDea Oh no @BookishMe so sorry! You are right to her husband and Connie she was loyal, to Benita she was righteous. Which is right? 6y

BookishMe @MinDea oh, nothing to be sorry about ;D not sure about right but blind loyalty can lead to adverse effects, as we have seen in this story. 6y

theokiereader @MinDea I wondered if Benita‘s fate would have changed if she went back to Herr Mueller, too. I think her suicide could have been interpreted in two ways: 1) She truly loved Herr Mueller, and seeing that she couldn‘t have him, she committed suicide so that she didn‘t have to live without him. Or... (edited) 6y

theokiereader 2) She was childish, and instead of TRYING to go win him back, she just gave up and decided nothing was worth living for. I still see Benita as the spoiled brat of the group, where as Marianne and Ania were more mature. I think Marianne was my favorite, showing loyalty and love in her own way. I‘m not convinced that Ania was repentant for her actions. I think she regretted them, but I dont think she was haunted by them. 6y

MinDea @marywag08 interesting thoughts! I looked at her suicide as her deciding that she would rather not live and become like her mother. Stuck. Unhappy. Living in shame. I didn't think it had anything to do with Connie, other than maybe thinking she was unloyal to her deceased husband. I got the sense she did love Herr Mueller but realized even had Marianne not done what she had done they would not have been happy. That she was hiding. 6y

MinDea See, this is why I love discussing books with you all! I love the different views! 6y

GatheringBooks so sorry i am in a different time zone so am only seeing this now as i wake up 6y

GatheringBooks loved hearing the different perspectives thus far. like everyone else, i also liked benita the least, but also felt sorry how her beauty seemed to be constantly both a boon and a curse. but i did find her to be incredibly shallow, esp the fact that she did not recognize or even cared about how herr muller felt about his own past, and how torn up he was about being a nazi. the fact that she can dismiss it casually was what ended their relationship- 6y

GatheringBooks - more than marianne‘s meddling, i thought, which while uncalled for was well-intentioned. 6y

GatheringBooks @marywag08 i really like how you found ania - i think she did what she had to do in order to survive. i kind of predicted at the onset that she isn‘t who she said she was given her sons‘ reticence - but perhaps the lack of being haunted may also be brought about by germans‘ sense of pragmatism? ania struck me as being no-nonsense and practical with little time nor care for self-reflection which she may find as self-absorption 6y

Debiw781 @kspenmoll I agree! I didn‘t end up really liking anyone but the characters felt very real by the end. I particularly liked the different perspectives this book gave on the war and I went from meh in the beginning to truly enjoying it. 6y

GatheringBooks it was ania‘s character that was especially unique to me in the whole novel - especially her many conversations with her american daughter in the end as to why she did what she did, her obliviousness in the beginning and the growing horror that led to her running away and adopting someone else‘s identity in the end - more than anything, she and her sons are survivors. (edited) 6y

Debiw781 @GatheringBooks I thought her casual dismissal of his past was more the reason the relationship ended too. I think he only decided on marriage out of guilt over his father seeing her belongings at the home anyway. Marriage would not have made her happy imo. 6y

GatheringBooks @Suelizbeth i felt exactly the same way - the many things ania did to survive (ditto her sons) was painfully real - the fact that ania ended up being indispensable to marianne in the end with her skills (her sense of organization/cooking skills/no-nonsense way) - shows that she carved an identity that was not just self-serving (unlike benita), i thought in the end it was redemptive, too, even tho she didn‘t really plan it out to be that way. 6y

Rachbb3 I liked the book very much. It had a couple surprises and took a turn I didn't expect. I wasn't surprised by Benita's suicide. I expected her to do something like that. I was surprised by Ania. 6y

GatheringBooks @Debiw781 exactly! benita will always be a high-maintenance kind of girl with the full entitlement and the constant self-absorption of the beautiful - which herr mueller seemed to want to give to her initially, i believe he truly loved her - until her inability to REALLY see him - or care and think about what she sees in him - ultimately horrified him about the kind of person she is. 6y

GatheringBooks @Bklover perfect, thanks for looking it up. i think at one point when ania ran away with her sons, she also came across the ‘real‘ ania which was how she got hold of her papers in the first place - like i said in another thread, she is clearly a survivor, and a pragmatist. 6y

GatheringBooks i was wondering how everyone felt about marianne‘s relationship with her own eldest headstrong daughter, and her relationship with martin, connie‘s son (more than benita‘s) - i found that fascinating too. 6y

MinDea @Debiw781 I also felt the same way, meh at the beginning to enjoying it at the end! 6y

MinDea @GatheringBooks I liked Marianne's relationship with Martin. It made sense to me. He needed a mother figure and his mother was not strong enough or able to help him but Marianne was and willing. I found her relationship with her own children also interesting and Ania's with her daughter, Mary. 6y

Jess7 There is still time to post your thoughts and discuss this book with everyone @Austen_Nerd ! Feel free to jump right in! 🤗 6y

Austen_Nerd Wow, i love all the comments. This may have been said in the above comments and I missed it. I thought the full circle, the book opens with the Countess in a wheelchair and it ends with Marianne in a wheelchair. These two seem so different at the beginning, yet, they were both strong women. Different, yes, I just thought it was an interesting detail. 6y

Austen_Nerd @jess7 thanks for tagging me😊 reading everything, makes me ponder more on what I read. 6y

Austen_Nerd @MinDea @Pamwurtzler I enjoyed reading about the book and why the author wrote the book, before I read the book. That made me more hungry for the story and see how it would unfold. 6y

BookishMe @GatheringBooks I find it an irony that she had set out to severe Benita's relationship with a Nazi man yet, unwittingly sheltered and connected with Ania (technically a Nazi in order to survive). If only Franz Mueller had be given an opportunity to redeem himself? He tried, every way possible to help them while they all lived in the Castle. 6y

MinDea @BookishMe great insight into Marianne. I think, had Benita not committed suicide, Marianne may have tried to make amends with her as she did with Ania at the end. She also had turned her back on Ania when she found out. I think she realized that everyone was dealing with their own ghosts and demons, just as she was. Though she didn't realize at the time that they were just wearing different masks than hers. But all stemmed from the same devil. 6y

BookishMe @MinDea I agree about the same devil. The late realization is a step in shedding Marianne's sense of righteousness. I think just focusing on the 3 women was adequate, as opposed to other other views of wanting to have had more rescued. There are so many layers to these main characters, and any more would have diluted the succinct development. 6y

MinDea @BookishMe at the beginning of the book I had been disappointed it was only 3 women in "The Women in the Castle" (thinking there were going to be more), but after Part II I realized that if there had been more either the book would have needed to be longer OR there would have been not enough time to tell more of their individual stories (past present & future). 6y

MinDea @Austen_Nerd I didn't even notice that! What a great catch! I would guess that was done on purpose and there is some symbolism! Love it! 6y

GatheringBooks @BookishMe hmmm. that is an interesting observation. it may also be the connie connection? the fact that marianne has always quietly perceived benita to be somewhat ‘beneath‘ connie in terms of education/status/thinking? and the fact that benita could choose a nazi for a partner after what Marianne‘s Connie sacrificed to stand up for his beliefs - the irony is palpable, and i could imagine and also understand marianne‘s distaste and horror 6y

GatheringBooks @BookishMe regarding Franz Mueller‘s not being given an opportunity to redeem himself - i think more than others‘ perceptions of the nazis, it was mueller‘s inability to live with himself that was also eating him up, that perhaps he himself felt that there were things beyond redemption? but i found this thread of the novel immensely fascinating as it provides such a refreshing insight into nazis/those who resisted dynamics in post-war Germany.cont 6y

GatheringBooks @BookishMe -cont kind of like people in post-war germany are now sizing each other up and camps divided versus those who resisted, those who did nothing, and the nazis on the other extreme; that within one country, to be so thoroughly torn asunder/divided, and judged by fellow germans, that must have been such a very difficult time to transcend - the concept of what it means to “move on” from the war also fascinated me. 6y

BookishMe @GatheringBooks Marianne's reaction is natural being an aristocrat herself. Going back to Connie, I wish there was more about their growing years and friendship. They certainly were attracted to each other but somehow ended up with different life partners. We know how Connie fell in love with Benita but not so much about Marianne and Albrecht. 6y

GatheringBooks @Austen_Nerd this is indeed a great observation. this totally escaped me as well, but there is a “coming full circle” to the narrative with that. :) 6y

GatheringBooks @BookishMe as far as i can remember albrecht was marianne‘s professor - clearly they regarded each other more as life partners- unlike the benita/connie connection that was more visceral and passion-based; there was one quote whereby benita showed contempt at marianne for her lack of ‘passion‘ despite her being supposedly learned in so many other things. 6y

BookishMe @MinDea I also think Benita's death, (something) Marianne 'would never outlive', could have prompted her to make amends with Ania, albeit decades later. @GatheringBooks moving from segmented values to forging a bond is another struggle to overcome. Your observations and points brought up in the discussion has certainly made this book a fruituous reading for me. 6y

GatheringBooks @BookishMe awww! likewise! i have drafted a review of this novel at GatheringBooks - i think it‘s scheduled in the coming weeks, will share with you all. :) 6y

BookishMe @GatheringBooks 👍🏽👍🏽 6y

MissAimz_55 Ania definitely became one of my favorite characters. Also Marianne by the end of the book became a lot more relatable to me. Benita's story was so tragic and it made me so sad that she felt she had nothing more to live for... this was a wonderfully written book though and from a very unique perspective . It's hard for me to dislike Benita, I just feel she was probably dealt one of the worst hands . 6y

Jess7 Like here is the final discussion for this book - but it was an open discussion @avalinah 6y

cajunsyd I truly enjoyed this unique perspective of World War II, both the German perspective and the viewpoint from the women‘s eyes. I don‘t know which character I related to most, they were all so complicated as most people are. Few things in life are black and white and this book highlights that point well. Great book pick! 6y

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