TheSignofFour

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
#TheSignofFour
#dd #discussionday @Cuilin

We can't wait to read your thoughts, Sherlockians! 🕵🏻‍♀️🔎🕵️‍♂️

erzascarletbookgasm, CogsOfEncouragement, AnneCecilie, Aimeesue, Larkken, Librarybelle, mom2bugnbee, Read4life, StayCurious, CatLass007, Mollyanna, curiouserandcurioser, eeclayton, dabbe, IndoorDame, kelli7990, TheAromaofBooks, 5feet.of.fury, Tineke, Pageturner1, PageShifter, AllDebooks, AnnR, kimrenee, aroyse, CrystalE02

CogsOfEncouragement This was a reread for me, and I listened to an audiobook this time. I admit I didn‘t enjoy every moment of Johnathan Small‘s long story. I gave this one four stars. 9mo

dabbe @CogsOfEncouragement Small's part reminded me of Part 2 in A STUDY IN SCARLET in a way. A perhaps waaaayyyyy too long story when we just wanted to wrap-up, so to speak. 9mo

CogsOfEncouragement It definitely reminded me of S in S part 2 as well. I don‘t remember if The Hound of the Baskervilles has something similar. 9mo

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dabbe @CogsOfEncouragement I don't think so. To me, HOUND is the perfect H&W story. 9mo

CrystalE02 I enjoyed reading this book. I got annoyed with the Jonathan Small story, I felt like it was too long. 9mo

dabbe @CrystalE02 I even felt my mind wandering quite a bit during his story. Maybe he talked so long because he didn't want to get carted off to jail. 😂 9mo

CrystalE02 @dabbe Lol!!! I didn't think of that. It was probably why he talked so long. 9mo

Daisey This method of filling in the details at the end seems to be a pretty common aspect of these stories, and I also think it‘s part of the reason I tend to like the short stories best. The balance of the explanation to the entire length works better than in some of the longer ones. That said, I did really enjoy this one. 9mo

dabbe @Daisey I enjoyed this one more than SCARLET, too. Though that explanation at the end had my brain wandering around quite a bit; it was hard to stay focused--which is why I totally agree with you re: the short stories. 🤩 9mo

Librarybelle Yeah, Jonathan Small‘s story was a bit much. But, I liked Holmes‘ deduction techniques. 9mo

erzascarletbookgasm I think Small‘s story, though long, was bearable compared to Part 2 in A Study In Scarlet 9mo

kelli7990 I enjoyed this story at the beginning but I didn‘t care too much for it at the end. 9mo

IndoorDame Overall I really liked this one! But I found my mind wandering a bit during Small‘s story too. I wondered if Doyle is drawing too much on common adventure story tropes that don‘t exist as much post colonialism, so he‘s referring a picture that doesn‘t already feel familiar in our minds, and also doesn‘t feel true to life? 9mo

dabbe @Librarybelle Those techniques are what keeps us reading these stories! 🤩 9mo

dabbe @erzascarletbookgasm 💯 agree! 🤩 9mo

dabbe @kelli7990 Doyle gets better with the short stories. 😃 9mo

dabbe @IndoorDame Excellent observation, and one I hadn't thought of. These stories were written during the Age of Realism, and what doesn't ring true for us today does make it a harder path to hoe. 9mo

SpellboundReader I didn't love it the story but didn't hate it either. @dabbe I read your handy-dandy pdf info about this story. Very helpful. 👍 Thank you. 🙂 It did make me wonder if that chance meeting in 1889 with Oscar Wilde, influenced Doyle's writing. Was there some unintentional competition going on which pushed Doyle to add those extra embellishments about Sherlock's character? Just thinking out loud here. 9mo

dabbe @BeeCurious I wouldn't be a bit surprised. One writer trying to outshine another, so to speak. I also thought he might have made Small's story so long because the book might have been serialized like many books in the 1800s, but it looks like the entire book was published in Lippincott's magazine. That must have been some huge magazine! 🤩 9mo

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dabbe

The Sign of Four | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
#TheSignofFour
#dd #discussionday @Cuilin

We can't wait to read your thoughts, Sherlockians! 🕵🏻‍♀️🔎🕵️‍♂️

CogsOfEncouragement I was not familiar with “Victorian Fears” but google quickly fixed that. A couple things: Tonga represents their fear of otherness. Thaddeus exhibits their fear of the underclass. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It gives me more to consider and appreciate. 9mo

dabbe @CogsOfEncouragement I'd love to say I came up with that, but I didn't. 🤩 My reading up on the book to come up with questions helped me! I learned this term, too! 😂 9mo

CrystalE02 I didn't think about the fears about the Victorian fears when I read this, but I do find it interesting to find out more about them. 9mo

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Aimeesue Fear of class mobility seems to have kept Mary from her (looted) fortune. Victorians were extremely fond of everyone “keeping to their place,” yes? 9mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Their society reeks of the medieval feudal system, doesn't it? The “native savages“ would be the serfs perhaps. 9mo

Librarybelle I definitely picked up on the class mobility fear, @Aimeesue ! 9mo

erzascarletbookgasm These ‘fears‘ are certainly interesting 🤨 😏 9mo

kelli7990 I didn‘t think about the Victorian fears when I read this. I was just enjoying the story. 9mo

IndoorDame Not really a term I‘m familiar with, but Tonga‘s involvement definitely stood out while I was reading as symbolic of! And now that you point it out the obsession with the intricacies of Mary moving up and down through the classes, and where that leaves her in regards to Watson probably plays into a different anxiety of the times. 9mo

dabbe @kelli7990 That's what makes these stories so wonderful; they can be analyzed, enjoyed, or read in all kinds of ways! 🤩 9mo

dabbe @IndoorDame That reminds me of Watson's fears when he thinks Mary will be the richest woman in London. He knows they can't be together if that happens--such are the rigid social constraints of that time period. No wonder there was such an underbelly of sordidness during this age! 9mo

Aimeesue @Librarybelle Glad it was t just me! 9mo

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dabbe

The Sign of Four | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
#TheSignofFour
#dd #discussionday @Cuilin

We can't wait to read your thoughts, Sherlockians! 🕵🏻‍♀️🔎🕵️‍♂️

CogsOfEncouragement I didn‘t study world history to a good enough extent to realize the reach of colonialism, so when I read books that discuss it I am always stunned. When people hear how many books I read a year I don‘t think they realize what a source of life long learning it is. 9mo

dabbe @CogsOfEncouragement You are so right! The truly #1 goal of my entire English-teaching career was to hopefully instill a love of reading in my students--even though they had to read certain books that were on the district-approved reading list. I always tried to pick books I thought they'd like--like good ol' SH! 🤩 9mo

CrystalE02 I knew the British Empire was large, only from what I studied in high school, but I didn't a huge deal about what all went on. I think that is why I love Sherlock Holmes. 9mo

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dabbe @CrystalE02 We definitely get some history lessons--even if Doyle is a bit biased and perhaps-even-not-always factual--we're learning, too! 🤩 9mo

CrystalE02 @dabbe yep I was thinking the same thing. 9mo

Aimeesue It‘s stunning to read the casual racism and blatant disregard of people‘s humanity in many of the descriptions. Not surprising if you read classics of the “Western cannon,” but yikes. Everybody just stealing everybody else‘s stuff because they believe they deserve it. Oy. (edited) 9mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Excellent observation. I seem to recall reading that the jewels originally belonged to an Indian rajah who tried to put them into the safekeeping of the British, but he was robbed. Shouldn't the jewels have rightfully been returned to him and not Mary? Did Doyle change it as another example of racism or did he just forget (continuity error)? 9mo

Aimeesue @dabbe Yes. The 4 killed the Rajah‘s servant who was transporting the treasure to the fort for safekeeping. In the aftermath of the uprising, nobody would‘ve looked too hard for the “outlawed” rajah, I imagine. Even today, return of looted treasure is pretty much up to whoever holds it. Look at the Elgin Marbles - Still in Great Britain. (edited) 9mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Had to look that one up--fascinating! Thanks for the history trip! 🤩 I guess this idea supports the idiom “finders keepers, losers weepers.“ 9mo

Librarybelle There are so many not so pleasant thoughts I have about imperialism and colonialism - my background is in history, and I‘ve studied enough to know it wasn‘t all happiness, and the indigenous communities were not thrilled by any means. And yes, so much taken from the countries! So sad. 9mo

erzascarletbookgasm As someone from a country under the colonial rule for a long period of time, the effects of British colonialism (1786 to 1941) are still felt up to this day. They brought racial theory and constructed a social and economic order structured by "race." 9mo

erzascarletbookgasm Imperialism and/or colonialism…it‘s taking advantage of / or literally taking what‘s not yours..the effects are not much different. 9mo

kelli7990 I didn‘t realize there was a history lesson in this book. I took a World History class in high school but I don‘t remember if we learned about colonialism or not. Every time I was in World History class, I didn‘t understand or retain the information. A lot of the time, I just felt confused. I haven‘t studied World History since I graduated high school because I don‘t understand it. 9mo

IndoorDame I don‘t actually know if it‘s intentional, but I see imperialism in the story as a really good microcosm of it in society. It‘s both blatant, in that it underpins everything & the story is in essence about it, or at least couldn‘t happen without it. And it‘s insidious, in that no one discusses it, no one even notices it when they aren‘t in the middle of an actual uprising in a foreign territory, & we get no sense of Doyle‘s personal views on it. 9mo

dabbe @Librarybelle Just looking into our own backyard and what we did to the Indigenous Americans makes my face burn in shame. 😢 9mo

dabbe @erzascarletbookgasm May I ask what country? You definitely have a deeper understanding about this than me, and I thank you for sharing your insight. 🩷💜❤️ 9mo

dabbe @kelli7990 The topic is so broad, it is hard to understand. And high school history courses paint such a wide brush over history, it's no wonder that the classes are challenging. 9mo

dabbe @IndoorDame According to Leslie Klinger, Watson is also charged with racism for remarking that the natives of the Andaman Islands are “naturally hideous, having large, misshapen heads, small, fierce eyes, and distorted features.“ Then Doyle produces Tonga, who fits the description to a tee. And Watson seems to feel no guilt penning these words because it is so deeply engrained in his culture. 9mo

Cuilin @erzascarletbookgasm same, I‘m from Ireland and we definitely have a generational trauma from Colonialism. 9mo

dabbe @Cuilin 💚🇮🇪💚 9mo

erzascarletbookgasm @dabbe Malaysia. @Cuilin True! 9mo

dabbe @erzascarletbookgasm 💙🇲🇾❤️ 9mo

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dabbe

The Sign of Four | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
#TheSignofFour
#dd #discussionday @Cuilin

We can't wait to read your thoughts, Sherlockians! 🕵🏻‍♀️🔎🕵️‍♂️

CogsOfEncouragement She seemed to do as she was told. She didn‘t complain, she accepted her lot without much emotion. She was not too ruffled at her treasure being lost since it would allow her to be within reach of Watson. She seemed to accept that there would be no chance of their happiness if she had a fortune, since he did not. 9mo

CogsOfEncouragement The way Mary is dressed is so important, and she checks all the boxes for what is expected/respectable. She does not have the means to dress beautifully but she is wearing what she is supposed to. When I watch shows and movies set at this time, I‘m struck by just how encumbering the long and heavy skirts had to be. We still have a long way to go toward equality but I appreciate that we wear proper clothes for the task we are set at. 9mo

dabbe @CogsOfEncouragement She seems to fulfill the “damsel in distress“ role quite nicely. Watson even escorts her home so that she doesn't have to be out late and be anymore a part of the mystery than she has to be. 9mo

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CrystalE02 I think she did fit the perfect Victorian woman. Although I feel like she probably wasn't. 9mo

dabbe @CrystalE02 Yeah, it's weird to see that in just the second book, Doyle marries off Watson. I want Holmes and Watson to always be at 221-B Baker Street without Watson having a wife. Thanks for breaking up the group, Yoko--I mean Mary! 😂 9mo

CrystalE02 @dabbe Lol!!!! When I was reading this book and it mention her, all I could think of is Mary in the BBC Sherlock.. 9mo

dabbe @CrystalE02 Played by Freeman's ex-wife, no less! I loved her in that series! 🤩 9mo

Daisey This was a reread, but I had forgotten that Watson and Mary met in just the second book. She does seem to be perfect example of a Victorian woman. 9mo

dabbe @Daisey It is surprising, isn't it? I want Watson and Holmes to always reside together at 221-B. That troublemaker! 😂 9mo

Librarybelle She did appear to check all of the boxes of a proper Victorian woman. @CogsOfEncouragement mentions a lot of perfect examples of this! 9mo

IndoorDame I‘d forgotten she showed up in the second book too! And by today‘s standards she‘s a bit boring to tempt him away from his bestie and his life of bachelor adventure, so I‘m assuming the perfect Victorian woman IS boring and proper (and pretty because men haven‘t changed that much) 9mo

dabbe @IndoorDame I know! And it's her mystery they're trying to solve, but she gets relegated to the back burner while the MEN do their thing! 😂 9mo

dabbe @Librarybelle We'll see how much she's mentioned now that she'll be a mere “wife“ from now on. 😃 9mo

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dabbe

The Sign of Four | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
#TheSignofFour
#dd #discussionday @Cuilin

We can't wait to read your thoughts, Sherlockians! 🕵🏻‍♀️🔎🕵️‍♂️

Librarybelle There were a couple of moments that Holmes meets someone who he happened to help in an earlier case and because of this, they just happen to have what he needs - now I cannot remember if it was the boat Aurora that he was somewhat known by the wife or a different episode! 🤦🏻‍♀️ 9mo

kelli7990 I didn‘t notice anything. 9mo

IndoorDame I felt very agreeable while reading this one. The entire premise was so outlandish, that small convenient coincidences along the way didn‘t seem out of place here, the way the ‘and then I solved it-esque‘ ending seemed in A Study in Scarlet. 9mo

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dabbe @Librarybelle And again, he happens to know the Baker Street Irregulars and happens to know the best #nosehoundaround in Toby. 🤩 9mo

dabbe @IndoorDame The suspension of disbelief wasn't as overt as in SCARLET; I totally agree! 🤩 9mo

dabbe @kelli7990 😍 9mo

27 likes6 comments

dabbe

The Sign of Four | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
#TheSignofFour
#dd #discussionday @Cuilin

We can't wait to read your thoughts, Sherlockians! 🕵🏻‍♀️🔎🕵️‍♂️

CrystalE02 No, I didn't notice any. I am sure that it won't really effect the canon. 9mo

Aimeesue Well, there‘s Watson‘s wandering war wound. Shoulder first story, leg in this one. I wonder if it‘s mentioned in any of the other stories? Guess we‘ll see! 9mo

dabbe @Aimeesue I have a feeling we'll be hearing about the #wanderingwound again. 😂 9mo

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dabbe In A STUDY IN SCARLET, Watson tells us that he's basically all alone in the world, yet in this book he has an older brother. Though, as Holmes so fantastically points out, the brother has recently died, though whether that was before Watson comes back from the war is not made certain. Maybe we'll hear more in the future. 9mo

Librarybelle I did not catch any, though I should have picked up on the #wanderingwound ! 9mo

kelli7990 I was listening on audio and I didn‘t notice anything. 9mo

erzascarletbookgasm I did not notice about the #wanderingwound ! 😂 9mo

PageShifter I also remember how that #wanderingwound made me confused 😀 9mo

IndoorDame I think this once again confirms I am a visual learner (or have zero attention span) I also felt agreeable enough to go with the #wanderingwound thing without so much as blinking, but every time someone‘s shawl slips between takes on tv, or a coffee cup moves to the other side of the table I can‘t look away!!!!!🫣😂 9mo

dabbe @Librarybelle We'll have to see if it keeps wandering in the next stories! 🤩 9mo

dabbe @kelli7990 Watson mentions it so quickly, it would be hard to notice! 🤩 9mo

dabbe @erzascarletbookgasm 🤩😂😍 9mo

dabbe @PageShifter I know! It's kind of like a “Wait, didn't I ...“ moment! 🤩 9mo

dabbe @IndoorDame Have you been to the IMDB website? My favorite part are the goofs noticed in the movies--you'd be the perfect writer for those! 🤩🤩🤩 9mo

IndoorDame @dabbe I love it! I use IMDB all the time to check actors, but I rarely dig into the other sections of the site. I‘ll definitely be checking that from now on! 9mo

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