Madame de Treymes

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Gorgeous prose and terrific characterization. Wharton does a good job of making this a nice read with a lot going on under the surface. But it is limited by an only ok plot, and mainly of really wealthy people being really wealthy. The cultural tension is American faux-purity and French sophistication, and maybe the subtle lack of sincere emotion. The tension is not on the wealth itself. Still, I really enjoyed this. #whartonbuddyread

Lcsmcat

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Lcsmcat

Madame de Treymes | Edith Wharton

The titular Mme de T says “Oh, we are of different races, with a different point of honour; but I understand, I see, that you are good people—just simply, courageously good!” Wharton play on the different rules of French and American society, but she has also created a character, mysterious and layered, whom we are not sure we can believe. I loved the ambiguity of the ending. No long quotes from me this week, just short bits. #whartonbuddyread

Lcsmcat @jewright @Louise @Sace @Suet624 @arubabookwoman @Currey @catebutler @Catherine_Willoughby @crazeedi @mdm139 @emilyhaldi @rubyslippersreads @KathyWheeler @llwheeler @CarolynM @Cathythoughts @BookishTrish @Graywacke @megnews 3y

Lcsmcat “Since conduct, in the last resort, must be judged by its enlarging or diminishing effect on character, might it not be that the zealous weighing of the moral anise and cummin was less important than the unconsidered lavishing of the precious ointment?” 3y

Lcsmcat “the clear air of American associations” meant ironically, or sincerely? 3y

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Graywacke Well, we should have known it couldn‘t have a happy ending. (I just finished. Processing) 3y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke No, Wharton is not known for happy endings. 😀 3y

Graywacke Just thinking out loud. Is this story mdm-T‘s revenge? 3y

Graywacke Are “courageously good” Americans mocked for idealist failure, for the inherent failure of idealistic purity? She writes “Is happiness never more to you, then, than this abstract standard of truth?” (It‘s a comment weakened a bit because there was no real happiness on offer.) 3y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I‘m undecided whether Mme de T is taking revenge or being manipulated by her family to get their revenge. Who paid off her lover‘s debts? What was her motivation to be so underhanded? The shadowy “family” behind her intrigues me. 3y

jewright I‘m never expecting a happy ending with Wharton, but I found this book dull and the twist expected. Ethan Fromme is still my favorite work by Wharton. I usually gain more of an appreciation for an author as I read more of the works, but that isn‘t happening for me with Wharton! I can definitely see why House of Mirth and Ethan Fromme and “Roman Fever” are the ones typically read and taught. 3y

Lcsmcat @jewright Yes, the twist was expected. But to me this wasn‘t about plot. It was atmospheric. The feeling of being immersed in an unfamiliar environment and feeling foreign. 3y

llwheeler I enjoyed the ending, probably my favourite part. But I like atmosphere and character heavy works, so a bit less plot doesn't bother me. 3y

TEArificbooks @Lcsmcat I agree it was more atmospheric 3y

Graywacke Oh, I liked this. I liked the Victorian(?) feel of the prose and the care put into it, and I thought it carried me through the first half of the book. And i liked the characters. John Durham‘s perspective was interesting. Md T was curious and her ethnic uncertainty was interesting to me. (I thought that Fannie said up front, between the lines, she was happy enough with just her son and md T made that happen, all without JD knowing. I liked that.) 3y

Graywacke Also i liked that it works on the surface as a nice read with good prose, and also works underneath where there is a lot going on. 3y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Durham does seem more invested in the relationship than Mme. de M, so in the end, the choice that is his sacrifice isn‘t really Fanny‘s sacrifice, is it? She mostly wants to keep her son and raise him outside the influence of her husband‘s family. 3y

Currey @jewright @Lcsmcat @Graywacke I also was not surprised there was a twist although I did not necessarily project the exact nature of the twist. Plus I agree that JD was much more committed to Fanny than she was to him. However, I was happy to be in this short story that so well depicted the subtle differences between cultures at the time and Wharton‘s language grows on one. It is like fine china. It looks delicate and yet it is very strong. 3y

Lcsmcat @Currey I like your comparison of Wharton‘s prose to “fine China.” Nice! 3y

arubabookwoman I was a bit let down by this, especially after House of Mirth. I would really like to have seen it expanded: Durham goes ahead and marries Fannie (either not having been told of the family's plan re Fannie's son or having been told, marrying her anyway, either with or w/o telling Fannie). Then let the fireworks begin. 3y

arubabookwoman The sparseness of plot is of course redeemed by Wharton's prose and social observations. I just wanted a bit more of a story and a bit more plot. 3y

Lcsmcat @arubabookwoman Interesting. If it were expanded I would have wanted more about the de Treymes family. 3y

CarolynM I enjoyed this, although it felt a bit like new world propaganda - the plain speaking, straight dealing, honourable, self sacrificing American versus the cryptic, underhanded, wheels within wheels style of the Europeans. Very much of its time, I think. I fully expected the son to be the sticking point, but I didn't expect quite so much self sacrifice from Durham. I like the story more if I think of it as the tragedy of a genuinely honourable man. 3y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM It‘s a bit of a Greek tragedy, isn‘t it? The character traits of each character seal their fate. 3y

Graywacke @CarolynM You caught on something I‘m puzzling. How into all this was JD? He‘s always honorable, but he‘s never emotional. He‘s never love sick, or worked up, or really all that expressive of any emotional directions. Was it all just honorable emotional repression? 3y

CarolynM @Graywacke I didn't feel that we were given much access to his feelings and maybe that's because he didn't have it either. I think there was a subtext of the push-pull of American attraction to/repulsion by European-ness, which may account for lack of clarity in his feelings about both Fanny and MdeT. 3y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM @Graywacke Durham was such a two-dimensional character that it was difficult to understand him. But his not being attracted to Fanny until she was Mme. de Treymes doesn‘t speak well to me about his character. 3y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat i was thinking about that 3y

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CarolynM

Madame de Treymes | Edith Wharton

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Fascinating to read a tale on cultural clash between France and the US at the turn of the last century. Contrasting attitudes to truth, honour and material gain. I wonder how the story be told today?
#WhartonBuddyRead
@Graywacke @Lcsmcat @Louise @megnews @llwheeler

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megnews

Madame de Treymes | Edith Wharton

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I decided I wanted to do more buddy reads in 2022. Having read Wharton‘s Age of Innocence in high school and not caring for it, I gave Ethan Fromme a try a few years back. I still wasn‘t impressed but decided to give this buddy read a try since it‘s a short novella. I just don‘t find rich people problems my cup of tea for reading. The characters really have to grow on you and they did to a degree. I will say that I liked the twist at the end 👇🏻

megnews Which brought this from a ⭐️⭐️💫 to ⭐️⭐️⭐️ star for me. I can‘t see myself joining in on a long Wharton novel but I do think I‘d give her another chance on a novella again. #Whartonbuddyread 3y

Prairiegirl_reading Now is not the time for rich people problems! 3y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa It‘s funny, I‘ve read a few Wharton‘s I liked, but none of these 😂 3y

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Riveted_Reader_Melissa Oops I‘m wrong, I did read

Ethan Frome

Riveted_Reader_Melissa Hers tend to have a sad twist often at the end. 3y

megnews @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I just don‘t remember anything significant from EF. Are all her novels on infidelity? It‘s not something I relish reading about. I tried 🤷🏻‍♀️ 3y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa Try Xingu, it‘s a very short story. The one‘s I have read haven‘t all been about infidelity, but usually a twist on how the rich abuse their power…and innocent people suffer from their misinterpretations. Xingu, kind of goes the opposite way.

Xingu

Riveted_Reader_Melissa Xingu is nice as a short story because she used their assumptions against them. 3y

Daisey I have found that I enjoy Wharton‘s shorter works so much more than her longer works. 3y

Graywacke Just catching this. We have the longest one next, The Fruit of the Tree. But then we follow that with Ethan Frome if you want to reread. I agree about the rich peoples‘ problems. Although I think it works in House of Mirth because it‘s a kind of expose. Here, it‘s just rich people being, well, dumb. 🙂 (But I enjoyed this.) 3y

megnews @Graywacke yes, I‘ll join in for Ethan Frome. 3y

Graywacke @megnews 👍 3y

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Louise

Madame de Treymes | Edith Wharton

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This novella is a quick read that explores the cultural naïveté of Americans in Paris and how they are perceived by old-family Europeans, and also the themes of quiet revenge and Schadenfreude. Toward the end of the book, the reader is waiting for the other shoe to drop, for the veneer of polite charm to give way to the dark motivations beneath it. Wharton‘s insightful and often surprising turns of phrase are a delight to read. #Whartonbuddyread

Graywacke I must be the only one who didn‘t feel the shoe, so to speak. I thought it was resolved! Oh well. 3y

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llwheeler

Madame de Treymes | Edith Wharton

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Another #whartonbuddyread finished, and I really enjoyed this short novella. Her prose is gorgeous as always, and her depictions of people navigating different societies and cultures are deft.

Graywacke Agree about her prose. Glad you enjoyed! 3y

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Lcsmcat

Madame de Treymes | Edith Wharton

This is an amazing character study so far. And we didn‘t meet the titular Madame until last. Durham, met first, gave the least away. But his pursuing Fanny de Malrive when he had no interest in Fanny Frisbee is telling. But the Boykins were hilarious caricatures, and the two Madames (de Treymes and de Maldive) were deliciously mysterious. And there was plenty of beautiful Wharton prose. #whartonbuddyread

Lcsmcat @graywacke @jewright @Louise @Sace @Suet624 @arubabookwoman @Currey @catebutler @Catherine_Willoughby @crazeedi @mdm139 @emilyhaldi @rubyslippersreads @KathyWheeler @llwheeler @CarolynM @Cathythoughts @BookishTrish 3y

Lcsmcat The chairs are the Parisian chairs that have been there since the mid 1800s, so Wharton got the color wrong when she wrote “He found two of the springy yellow chairs indigenous to the spot, and placed them under the tree near which they had paused” 3y

Lcsmcat There was nothing very redoubtable about Madame de Treymes, except perhaps the kindly yet critical observation which she bestowed on her sister-in-law‘s visitors: the unblinking attention of a civilized spectator observing an encampment of aborigines. 3y

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Lcsmcat About Mrs. Boykin: “as though whatever had happened to her had merely added to the sum total of her inexperience.” 3y

Lcsmcat More chairs: “as he balanced himself insecurely on one of the small gilt chairs which always look surprised at being sat in.” 3y

Lcsmcat “all the older ladies present had the sloping shoulders of a generation of shawl-wearers” 3y

Lcsmcat And the last quote, which is too long to fit in one comment and will have to be divided 3y

Lcsmcat “Everything is prepared in advance—his political and religious convictions, his judgments of people, his sense of honour, his ideas of women, his whole view of life. He is taught to see vileness and corruption in every one not of his own way of thinking, and in every idea that does not directly serve the religious and political purposes of his class.

3y

Lcsmcat The truth isn‘t a fixed thing: it‘s not used to test actions by, it‘s tested by them, and made to fit in with them. And this forming of the mind begins with the child‘s first consciousness; it‘s in his nursery stories, his baby prayers, his very games with his playmates!” 3y

Graywacke What captures me first is the writing. This a prose masterpiece and reads easily and wonderfully and at every point of the text so far. 3y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat i like your quotes and that‘s funny about the chairs. 3y

Graywacke The second thing that caught my attention, although delayed a bit, was Durham‘s inability to understand Fannie. Everything is presented through his perspective and all we get are her words. And they feel very random - her reasons come out of nowhere. But when i flip it around and try to understand what she is really saying - he doesn‘t get it. He doesn‘t get that the implications in her words. She is saying a whole lot…and he‘s not picking it up. 3y

Graywacke So I‘m thoroughly enjoying this. 3y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Yes! Durham is so stumblingly clueless! Does Wharton mean him to be a symbol of the Ignorant American? Or is it just him? I‘m not sure. But she isn‘t kind to her countrymen in this one. 3y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat oh, she‘s charmingly critical of Americans. 🙂 (edited) 3y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Durham is maybe selectively clueless. He‘s also insightful when he‘s not blinded by desire. 3y

Currey @Graywacke @Lcsmcat Not only is he not picking up on what Frannie is attempting to convey he believes he can fix it by bring forthright. Clearly, one of the things Fannie is saying is that it isn‘t simple and it can not be dealt with head on. (edited) 3y

Currey I loved the writing also 3y

Lcsmcat @Currey It‘s so sweet and sad and childlike that he thinks he can fix things by just asking directly. 3y

Graywacke @Currey yes, yet there he goes. 3y

llwheeler I also really enjoyed this, especially the prose! I think almost everyone here is clueless in some respect when it comes to understanding different classes/cultures/societies, though often perfectly competent within their own sphere. 3y

Lcsmcat @llwheeler Good point. They are just floundering because they don‘t know the rules. 3y

Lcsmcat Was anyone else struck by the mentions of furniture and decorations? I know she was known as a decorator but it shows more to me in this novel/novella than in our previous reads. 3y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat i admit just cursory, like Kate‘s comment on the house or the comparisons of Md Treymes and clan to the portraits. 3y

arubabookwoman I too am enjoying this (tho' finding it suffers a bit in comparison with House of Mirth), and of course Wharton's prose is superb. I was reading it as a bit of a France vs. US, to be played out in the characters of Durham and Madame de Treymes. Following are a few of the quotes that stood out to me, starting with Fanny's gushing about Americans as "dear, good, sweet, simple, real..."?????? 3y

arubabookwoman I loved the description of Madame de Treymes meeting Durham--"the kindly observation which she bestowed" on the visiting Americans, "the unblinking attention of a civilized spectator observing an encampment of aborigines." Although of course, her "friendly observation" "resulted in no expression on her part of a desire to renew her study of them."?????? 3y

TEArificbooks The tv show on Netflix, Emily in Paris, kind of reminds me of this book. American in Paris making all kind of faux pas mistakes, because they do business differently there. Some people take advantage of Emily because of that, so I was wondering if someone will take advantage of Durham. 3y

Lcsmcat @arubabookwoman I highlighted that passage, too. It speaks volumes about Mme. de T.! 3y

arubabookwoman And then contrast the Boykins, who "in their isolation of their exile...had created about them a kind of phantom America." Further, "a little world sparsely peopled by compatriots in the same attitude of chronic opposition toward a society chronically unaware of them."???? 3y

arubabookwoman And then Durham on meeting Madame de Treymes family felt "that he had never before known what 'society' meant; nor understood that in an organized and inherited system, it exists full-fledged where two or three of its members are assembled." Whatever else we may say about Wharton, she is certainly an acute observer/chronicler of society! 3y

arubabookwoman @Graywacke I hadn't really honed in on Durham's cluelessness, but this is an important point. Is this an "American" trait@? 3y

Lcsmcat @arubabookwoman I‘m not sure if Wharton is saying that cluelessness is an “American trait” or innocence is. And either way, is she holding it up as a good thing or a bad thing? 3y

Louise It‘s such a pleasure to read Wharton‘s exquisite observations of character and environment. Even though the era is very different, the reading brought back memories of living in Europe and experiencing the way it can change one‘s outer behaviors, mannerisms, and vocal tone. I used to feel that to speak the language without an accent, one had to embody the culture in one‘s movements, cadences of speech, etc. Wharton captures this so well. 3y

arubabookwoman @Lcsmcat I don't know if she thinks it's good or bad. I guess we'll find out. In any event, this novel seems a part of that group of works by Henry James and others featuring rich Americans attempting to insinuate their way into Old established European (sometimes aristocratic) society. 3y

Lcsmcat @arubabookwoman Definitely see the James influence here! 3y

Lcsmcat @Louise She is an astute observer of culture. 3y

Graywacke Part of the reason the opening is so entertaining once we get it all: We have the tension of presenting your partner to your family and worried how it will go. Fannie loves the family, success! So thinks Durham. But she loves them as an enjoyment of moment. Whatever her sense of them as future in-laws is not clearly expressed. So, actually not success at all. (edited) 3y

Graywacke As for class of cultures - it‘s a clash of high society cultures. Not, like, normal Americans or normal French. I find that aspect a little strange. Although entertaining. And I think she is definitely calling the Americans clueless - and calling it an American trait. (It‘s still true.) 3y

CarolynM @Lcsmcat I highlighted that long last quote you shared. I think it sums up the way a lot of groups operate, be they social, cultural or religious. It is interesting to see Wharton's take on Americans abroad, both those seeking to fit into the new society and those resolutely refusing to. I'm looking forward to seeing how the culture clash plays out for the individuals in this story. 3y

jewright Guess I am the odd one out. I can appreciate the writing, but I was disappointed in this novel. I love Wharton‘s shorter works, like Ethan Frome and Román Fever, but so far her novels (other than House of Mirth) lack the biting twist I love the most from her writing. 3y

Graywacke @jewright glad to have a critical view. The biting twist...I probably haven't read enough of her work to fully grasp that comment. 3y

megnews I read Age of Innocence in high school and Ethan Fromme a few years back. Didn‘t care for them but decided to give Wharton another go. Immediately compared it to Henry James and sorry to not really be liking it. Though I think I know the ending, she has made me curious enough and the book short enough that I‘ll continue on to find out. 3y

Lcsmcat @megnews James was a friend and early influence on Wharton. I think she moves away from him in her later works, but maybe not far enough away for you to like her? 3y

Lcsmcat @jewright What I was trying to say about her prose was not the totality of a work seeming inevitable and easy, like the best of Cather is, but those moments where she says something so clear, but in a way no one else has done, like the chairs afraid to be sat on, or the slope-shouldered shawl weathered. 3y

Graywacke @megnews thanks for joining and happy to another perspective. I have yet to read Henry James(!) (although I think I grasp his influence here). 3y

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Cathythoughts

Madame de Treymes | Edith Wharton

Thankyou @Ddzmini for the tag. #FirstLineFridays
I‘m just starting the tagged book , first line is....

John Durham, While he waited for Madame de Malrive to draw on her gloves , stood in the hotel doorway looking out across the Rue de Rivoli at the afternoon brightness of the Tuileries gardens.

ShyBookOwl

LeahBergen That‘s a lovely first sentence! 3y

batsy Oh, Wharton 😍 That's a first sentence that certainly paints a picture. 3y

TrishB Lovely ❤️ 3y

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Cathythoughts @LeahBergen isn‘t it ! ❤️ 3y

Cathythoughts @batsy She‘s pretty brilliant 💫 (edited) 3y

Cathythoughts @TrishB ❤️❤️ 3y

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CarolynM

Madame de Treymes | Edith Wharton