King Henry VI Part 2

so-so

Ha! Only four months late to the end of the Shakespeare Readalong! I started this at a bad time in the pandemic for me and I ended up leaving the book to collect dust for months on end. Finally had the wherewithal to finish but will have to rewatch The Hollow Crown before tackling part 3.

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Graywacke

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

pick

Possibly the bard‘s first play. A weakening king, lethal powerplay games, dissolution of order, an incoherent rebellion, lots of severed heads, and finally York meets the Lancaster King Henry VI in battle - the 1st Battle of St Albans, the traditional start of the War of Roses. This first time through I mostly appreciated that I could follow the tangled plot and some of the main undercurrents. Thanks @merelybookish and #shakespearereadalong

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Daisey

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

so-so

Another Shakespeare play is complete! I didn‘t enjoy this as much as Part 1. I think this was partly because I enjoyed Joan in the first part, and I just did not like anyone in this part. However, it also may have to do with a busier schedule and not consistently reading an act each weekend while also carefully reading along. As always, I did enjoy the ArkAngel audio version.

#ShakespeareReadalong #ArkAngelShakespeare

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merelybookish

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

Besides a quick viewing of Cade's head, Act V is dedicated to York's pursuit of the crown. The plotting is done. Sides are taken (or openly avowed). Fighting begins. The play ends with the Battle of St.Albans, considered the start of The War of the Roses. York triumphs while Henry flees to London. (Margaret is exasperated: "What are you made of? You'll nor fight nor fly.)
A solid ending to a middle volume methinks! Thoughts?
#shakespearereadalong

merelybookish @GingerAntics @Graywacke @readinginthedark @Jess_Read_This @batsy @Lcsmcat @Cuilin @TheBookHippie @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Daisey @jewright @mollyrotondo @Melismatic @LitStephanie @CoffeeNBooks @Trashcanman @IamIamIam @Liz_M @saresmoore @catebutler @Kristy_K @kathedron @wanderinglynn @Wife @Mtroiano @MrsMalaprop @slategreyskies @Sunraven @teainthelibrary @Gezemice @Panic70 @Balibee146 @rabbitprincess 4y

merelybookish I know Margaret is awful but she has become my favourite character, maybe because (as the sole woman) she stands out. Plus, I enjoy how frustrating she finds Henry. I also wonder if this play wins for most beheaded heads on stage? Congrats! We are halfway through the tetralogy! Thanks as always to everyone who reads and comments! You make reading Henry Vi, Part 2 enjoyable! @Graywacke will be leading us through Part 3! 4y

MoonWitch94 So I just caught up! Phew! @merelybookish I feel very similar to you about Margaret. Her annoyance with Henry does make her more enjoyable as a character. And we‘ve made it halfway! Ready for part 3! 4y

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merelybookish @MoonWitch94 I've been forgetting to tag you! Apologies!! 4y

batsy I agree, I like Margaret as a character and she has some great lines. "What are you made of?“ is one that I underlined as well. Also, I'm not sure what it says about me that I "enjoyed" York losing his shit, his grandiose speeches invoking Greek mythological characters, and then just deciding to eliminate people as he went along. Thanks for leading the discussion and I'm looking forward to Part 3! 4y

MoonWitch94 @merelybookish No worries!! I‘ve been a bit MIA but I‘m back now! :-) 4y

Graywacke I enjoyed little Clifford‘s speech. Scene 2 was confusing, if necessary. What, they all stand around talking about how they‘re going to kill each other? Were they drinking tea? And why was Margaret (the blood-bespotted Neapolitan 🙂) down with Somerset? Was he Suffolk‘s replacement? Anyway, I guess the point is H vi isn‘t much of anything and M realizes it most. 4y

Graywacke Thanks @merelybookish !! You carried us through. 4y

Graywacke @batsy York‘s sinister speeches were entertaining. (Lots of mythology here. Maybe the Bard was trying to beef this battle up a bit 🤔) 4y

Graywacke Also, psst, a little preview:
Henry VI Part Three - current plan

Act I - Apr 11
Act II - Apr 18
Act III - Apr 25
Act IV - May 2
Act V - May 9 4y

Lcsmcat Margaret was interesting as a character (although not someone I‘d invite to tea!) and I felt her frustration with H VI myself. Right or wrong, at least DO something! 4y

Cuilin Not sure I understood all of it yet I enjoyed immensely. As for body counts and beheadings it‘s certainly in the run for most with Titus Andronicus. I may be alone but I empathize with HVI, he‘s the reluctant King which is why he sucks at it. He should have abdicated and let them all deal with the mess. 🤷‍♀️ 4y

mollyrotondo I agree with @Cuilin I empathize with HVI. He just wanted to devote his time to philosophy and religion. Not a bad aspiration. The rest were just out to scheme and ruin all of the good HV accomplished. So many heads were chopped off and there was such much body trauma in this play. Law went right out the window and brutality became the solution to conflict. I think Alexander Iden was my favorite 😂 4y

merelybookish @batsy Agreed. Since you dubbed him Mr Burns in your review it's hard not to find him evil-doing quite funny. 😂 I smiled in Act I when he launches into a big aside and then apologizes to Buckingham for taking so long to answer. 🤣 4y

merelybookish @MoonWitch94 Glad you're back and caught up! And we all need to give ourselves a pat on the back! 😃 Because reading the histories is...not the same as reading his other plays imo. 4y

merelybookish @Graywacke Also lots of bear baiting talk. And was this the first time that York's disability is brought up? I hadn't noticed it but I feel it comes up in the later plays as evidence of his unworthiness. 4y

merelybookish @Graywacke And yes scene 2 was confusing. 4y

merelybookish @Lcsmcat At least Lady MacBeth had a husband who matched her ambitions. Henry is just so ill-suited to this role. And apparently was believed to have mental health problems. 4y

merelybookish @Cuilin @mollyrotondo Yes I did feel for Henry, especially in the last act when he wishes he could be a subject. He was best off when he had a strong protector like Gloucester who took care of business and let Henry do his own thing. At the same time, this play really hammers home how a weak monarch affects all levels of society. 4y

mollyrotondo @merelybookish yes definitely agree that Henry‘s weakness was so damaging to the society. There is so much unrest amongst the people and no one knows who to trust and which side to take. Sort of reminds me of our 2016 election. Too much division leads to societal distress and the wrong people being put in power. And then a lot of clean up once everyone (or most) comes to their senses. 4y

mollyrotondo @merelybookish @Graywacke oh wait I missed York‘s disability. What was said? 4y

merelybookish @mollyrotondo Clifford says it in scene I. "As crooked in thy manners as thy shape" (V.i.157-8) 4y

TheBookHippie @MoonWitch94 I just caught up too PHEW!!! 4y

TheBookHippie @mollyrotondo I agree it seems every time we read Shakespeare we can relate very well to today. 4y

TheBookHippie A weak leader never a good idea, the affects are felt literally everywhere, and also no matter who surrounds you, it‘s not enough in the long of it. I did feel this was a good middle book. I‘m looking forward to the next one. 4y

TheBookHippie @Lcsmcat 😂 I invited everyone to tea I love a good discussion but I agree with you, no thanks 😝 4y

mollyrotondo @merelybookish ahhhh very interesting. I missed that! 4y

TheBookHippie @batsy I enjoyed that too although I enjoy Lady MacBeth as well so 🤷🏽‍♀️ 4y

Graywacke @mollyrotondo - I missed the disability too. Good catch @merelybookish and thanks. 4y

Graywacke @Cuilin @mollyrotondo @merelybookish no sympathy for h vi here. He might not like his role, but he still has to think about those dependent on him. Wake up, wee king. People are dying. 4y

MoonWitch94 @merelybookish AGREED!! 🤣 It‘s quite a feat! 4y

MoonWitch94 @TheBookHippie Go us! It‘s quite a feat!! 🤪 (edited) 4y

mollyrotondo @Graywacke yes you are right lol he has a huge responsibility so he needs to take charge especially once he started to see how his men were handling disputes. That should have been his first wake up call. 4y

Cuilin @Graywacke yes I think this demonstrates the failure of inherited ruling monarchy. Not all are born to lead. He had many signs to step aside it‘s not as though nobody wanted the role. 4y

GingerAntics I think the defining moment for Henry was when he turned tale and ran in this act. 4y

Graywacke @Cuilin right. It was all fine until Gloucester was killed off and Henry actually had to rule. @GingerAntics I don‘t know. I trust Margaret there. 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke I agree about trusting Margaret. She‘s really the monarch. Henry‘s just her puppet. 4y

batsy @TheBookHippie Same! Gimme all the "evil" ladies, I guess? ? They're reliably fascinating in his plays. 4y

batsy @Graywacke I did get the sense that Shakespeare was trying to situate it within that lineage of ancient tragedy & elevate its importance for his audience. 4y

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GingerAntics

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

pick

Not as good as the first part, this is between a pick and a so-so for me. Henry seems to be a weaker and weaker king as the story progresses. Even though he is the titular character, he actually plays a very small role in the events of the play. It‘s interesting to watch how easily manipulated Henry is; although, the commoners were just as easily manipulated in Act 4. That was probably the most active, interesting part of the whole play.

GingerAntics #Shakespeare #HenryVIpart2 #shakespearereadalong 4y

batsy That's interesting! I had the opposite reaction 😁 4y

GingerAntics @batsy to what part? This one dragged a lot to me. 4y

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batsy Liked it much better than Part 1. 4y

GingerAntics @batsy oh, got it. I think I missed the spunk of Jane. This one seemed to just plod along, like Henry trying to figure out what to do with himself. Henry VI is a bit of a disappointment as a king, really. 4y

batsy @GingerAntics Ooh yes, Jane was the highlight of Part 1. And Henry VI is a total disappointment. I initially felt bad for him because introvert empathy, but that isn't an excuse for having no personality. Lol 4y

GingerAntics @batsy I hadn‘t thought of that. You‘re right, he does come off very introverted at first, but it started to go beyond that. I feel like his wife‘s left shoe could beat him in a personality contest. He‘s just such a push over. 4y

merelybookish @GingerAntics Left shoe Indeed! 🤣 By the end, I had come to enjoy Margaret, in part, because she had some personality. Also, because I could differentiate her from all the men and their fighting. 4y

GingerAntics @merelybookish Margaret is pretty much the most civilised person in this play. She can be ruthless when she needs to be, but at least she knows what she wants and doesn‘t just kill people left and right. 4y

18 likes9 comments

batsy

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

pick

I enjoyed this a lot more than Part 1. Part 2 starts off with a bang, as in necromancy, but it's brief, & my one major criticism of this play is: NOT ENOUGH DARK ARTS. The shit really hits the fan with beheadings, a dying Cardinal cursing God, failed populist uprisings (apparently based somewhat on the Peasants' Revolt), doomed plots, doomed love, & the Duke of York watching it all with glee like Mr. Burns from The Simpsons. #shakespearereadalong

batsy @merelybookish 4y

batsy [Image above: "The Conjuration", John Opie (1792) https://thefugitivesaint.tumblr.com/post/624021510821199872/john-opie-1761-1807-... 4y

Lindy I‘m sold! (Never previously having interest in Shakespeare‘s plays about kings.) 4y

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merelybookish Perfect review! And 💯! NOT ENOUGH DARK ARTS!! 🤣 4y

batsy @Lindy I'm not a fan of his histories in general, either, but the patient and immersive group reads have helped! I recommend this, but it's part of a tetralogy. Two kings & a number of squabbling nobles, unfortunately 😅 4y

batsy @merelybookish Thank you, and I'm glad we agree on the dark arts 😆 4y

batsy @Milara Ha, yes! Good point. A tiny bit of witchraft and necromancy would have definitely gone a *long* way for Elizabethan audiences. 4y

Graywacke Mr Burns! 🙂 4y

batsy @Graywacke 😁 4y

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Lcsmcat

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

pick

With the normal problems that the middle volume of a trilogy is subject to, this play is still one I‘ve enjoyed reading and would enjoy more seeing. I‘ll try to seek out a good production online before our #shakespearereadalong discussion on Sunday.

TheBookHippie Yay! 4y

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merelybookish

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

Act IV dramatizes Jack Cade's 1450 rebellion. According to Wikipedia, it stemmed from "local grievances regarding the corruption, maladministration, and abuse of power of the king's closest advisors." (This was not something I knew about ?) I found myself rooting for Cade at times (I enjoyed his lineage ?) but also getting Trumpy MAGA vibes. Lots of beheadings! I ended up feeling sorry for Henry who longs to be a subject. #shakespearereadalong

merelybookish @GingerAntics @Graywacke @readinginthedark @Jess_Read_This @Lcsmcat @batsy @TheBookHippie @Cuilin @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo @Melismatic @Daisey @jewright @LitStephanie @saresmoore @Liz_M @Wife @Trashcanman @IamIamIam @wanderinglynn @kathedron @Mtroiano @Sunraven @teainthelibrary @slategreyskies @MrsMalaprop @Gezemice @Kristy_K @CoffeeNBooks @Panic70 @Balibee146 4y

merelybookish I liked how this act shows how the issues at court have real effects on the entire populace. Without a strong monarch, everyone suffers. I also liked how anyone can find a way to show why they are the rightful heir to the crown. 😆 4y

batsy That's exactly how I felt about Cade's rebellion. You summed it up perfectly ? On the one hand, the grievances are real, otoh he's like "All your wives are belong to us" & "Do you read and write? You must die" so that wasn't great, though I understand the class issues of the latter. I also kind of felt sorry for the King, because dude just seems like an introvert who wants to pray & philosophise. And Margaret's asides continue to be funny. 4y

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Graywacke I read this in-flight and found Cade entertaining. I saw him as humorously awful, all chaos and fear for power, like any properly deranged populist. Also I was surprised how flippantly we‘re done with Suffolk. 4y

merelybookish @batsy Yes to all of this! All the nobles are so awful so part of me appreciates why Cade wants to overthrow them all. But then the kill all the scholars, lawyers, etc. And hatred of the French was not good 🤷 And yes Margaret remains delightfully, consistently awful. 4y

merelybookish @Graywacke A proper deranged populist! 👍 As for Suffolk, he remained true to (dickish) form till the end. 4y

GingerAntics Spring Break has totally thrown off my sense of days and nights (along with not sleeping normally at all), so I‘ll have to catch up and return to the conversation. 4y

Cuilin I‘ve finally caught up!! Oh my, so much happens in this play. It must be a nightmare to produce and direct! I wanted a visual to keep all the Lords and Dukes straight so I watched the Hollow Crown. Wonderfully done, even though it doesn‘t adhere to the play. 4y

Lcsmcat So many MAGA vibes! The populist crew is just as awful as the aristocracy. I liked when they all abandoned Cade, but I basically don‘t trust anyone. 😀 4y

mollyrotondo I love how Cade just made up a random lineage story and is like yup the crown is mine. It makes me start to dislike York in this play. His public claim for the throne put this idea into Cade‘s head and incited a vulnerable mob of people. It shows how fragile the population is and how much Henry V is certainly missed. And Suffolk‘s death was perfect because 1. I hated him and 2. It showed how much the people know the Royal court is corrupted and ⬇️ 4y

mollyrotondo ... but Henry has been totally blind to the corruption around him. But I think he‘s starting to get it now because he saw Margaret cry for Suffolk and told her that he believes she would not cry for him if he died. But at this point it‘s over for him. 4y

vivastory I just saw the news about the shooting in Denver. Thinking of you & hoping you & your loved ones are safe. 4y

merelybookish @vivastory Thank you Scott. We are safe and not in our area but, of course, it could be any grocery store at any time. Sober reminder that now that the pandemic is ebbing, we are back to shootings. 😞 4y

vivastory Too true unfortunately. It was one of the few benefits of lockdown. 4y

merelybookish @Cuilin I admire your attempt to keep them all straight. Outside of Gloucester and York, who do stand out, I've tended to lump them all together as plotting, privileged noble. 🙂 4y

merelybookish @Lcsmcat No one seems worth trusting. Good point! I believe Henry VI has a good heart but no trust he will act on anything. 4y

merelybookish @mollyrotondo Yes to everything you say here. Initially I found the rebellion out if place but it really does show how unstable the country is and how all the plotting is affecting the entire populace. And obviously it's not hidden from anyone except maybe Henry. 4y

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Daisey

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

Catching up on a few acts of Shakespeare this morning

#ShakespeareReadalong #ArkAngelShakespeare

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batsy

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

Anyone else's brain unhelpfully supplied "... and Butthead"?

No? Just me? ? #90skidsproblems

#ShakespeareReadAlong

TheBookHippie 🤣 my daughter is a 90s kid 🤣 4y

vivastory "...the King's Council suck, heh heh" ???? 4y

LeahBergen 😆😆 4y

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Bertha_Mason My first thought, in fact. 4y

GingerAntics That was the first thing I though, too. 4y

batsy @TheBookHippie 😁🙌🏽 4y

batsy @vivastory 😂😂 4y

batsy @LeahBergen My mind is a sad place 😂 4y

batsy @Bertha_Mason @GingerAntics That's how I know that we're all cool 😆 4y

mom2bugnbee I've not read this one, but trust me when I say that's exactly where my brain would have gone as well. 😂 4y

GingerAntics 🤣😂🤣 4y

KVanRead 😂😂😂 4y

batsy @mom2bugnbee 🙌🏽😆 4y

RohitSawant 🤣🤣 4y

MemoirsForMe 😂😂😂 4y

Centique Yes!!! My brain went straight there 😂😂 4y

Lcsmcat Yep! 🤣😂🤣 4y

batsy @Centique @Lcsmcat I'm in good company 😆 4y

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merelybookish

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

Well, all that plotting goes into action! Glou is murdered. York is dispatched to Ireland. Suffolk is forced into exile. Beauford dies. Margaret manages to make it all about her. (She gets my fave line: "make my image an alehouse sign" ?). Henry is...weak. Lots of comparisons to hawks and snakes. Not sure who is what but Henry is always the prey. And York continues to play the long game. I enjoyed it. What did you think?#shakespearereadalong

merelybookish @GingerAntics @Graywacke @readinginthedark @Jess_Read_This @Lcsmcat @batsy @jewright @Daisey @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @TheBookHippie @CoffeeNBooks @mollyrotondo @Melismatic @LitStephanie @Gezemice @rabbitprincess @Mtroiano @MrsMalaprop @Wife @saresmoore @Liz_M @wanderinglynn @Trashcanman @IamIamIam @kathedron @Cuilin @Kristy_K @teainthelibrary @Sunraven 4y

merelybookish @catebutler @slategreyskies @Panic70 @Balibee146 4y

TheBookHippie I‘m catching up 😬😩long week here I‘ll be back to post! 4y

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GingerAntics Margaret reminds me of a more selfish version of Lady MacBeth. She really only cares about herself. She even manages to make Gloucester‘s murder about herself. She‘s a trip. Henry is just weak. He needs to man up, or absolutely EVERYONE is going to steal his thrown. I might steel his thrown just to prove the point. 4y

merelybookish @TheBookHippie I completely understand! 4y

merelybookish @GingerAntics Yes, Margaret is a trip! And is there anyone not angling for the throne? Gloucester might have been the only one. 4y

mollyrotondo @GingerAntics that was the best part of this act for me. Henry is grieving the death/murder of his advisor and Margaret is taking this as an opportunity to talk about herself. And Henry shoots her down. This is the first time that Henry actually stands his ground. He is still weak but I was happy to see him put down Margaret even in this tiny way 4y

Graywacke @merelybookish @GingerAntics i still don‘t understand why a queen would be angling ... I think to be queen. Weird to me. 4y

Graywacke I liked the long speeches in this act, even if I sped through them a bit. And I liked that Henry finally caught on to something and showed a little backbone - even if it seems to play into York‘s hands. And i liked how everyone was angling for their own reasons and really warping reality. 4y

Graywacke Also it was interesting to see Warwick and Salisbury play their, sort of assigned, parts for York after he is sent to Ireland. 4y

GingerAntics @merelybookish right? The one guy who wasn‘t in the midst of a power grab is the one arrested and murdered. Interesting that RII was arrested and murdered as well. This family is twisted. 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke right? That‘s confusing to me. What is she really angling for? 4y

merelybookish @GingerAntics @Graywacke I assumed as a foreigner she should not be trusted, like she can't help it?.But I also wondered if her affair with Suffolk was an incentive. And if she is ambitious, how frustrating would Henry be as a partner? 4y

GingerAntics @merelybookish true! He is the LEAST ambitious human being in this play for sure, possibly in history. 4y

Lcsmcat @merelybookish I read Margaret with the “Suffolk affair” angle, too. 4y

batsy @merelybookish I loved that line by Margaret, too ? I enjoyed this Act for the reasons @Graywacke mentioned: everyone is acting in self-interest & there's full on drama. Some great lines in the interest of self-protection, too. Suffolk with "And we, I hope, sir, are no murderers" which made me cackle & York with "My brain more busy than the laboring spider / Weaves tedious snares to trap mine enemies". #drama 4y

merelybookish @batsy Lots of great lines! I like when Margaret accuses Suffolk of being soft-hearted and then when he starts saying a bunch of curses, the queen is like, "enough already!" ? 4y

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batsy

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

Thanks for the tag, @Kenyazero !

Histrionic 👑🙄
Diabolical 🗡️😳
Farcical 🎭🙃

#3wordreviews @ShyBookOwl

Tagging anyone who would like to play!

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merelybookish

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

Act II and the plotting slowly goes into action. The Duke of Glou is removed after his wife is charged and publicly shamed. York outlines his claim to the throne. Margaret is relieved the protector is gone. Two scenes with commoners that mirror the trickery and treason of the nobility. And through it all the King remains oblivious, idealistic to be sure, but oblivious nonetheless. Thoughts on this act #shakespearereadalong friends?

merelybookish Where does your allegiance lie? Did you feel bad for Saunder Simpcox? Did the Duchess atone for her sins? Did York convince of his right to the throne? Is the Cardinal the worst, or is that just me? 🤣 4y

merelybookish @GingerAntics @Graywacke @readinginthedark @Jess_Read_This @batsy @Lcsmcat @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Daisey @Cuilin @mollyrotondo @Melismatic @LitStephanie @Gezemice @CoffeeNBooks @jewright @Liz_M @saresmoore @Wife @wanderinglynn @kathedron @Trashcanman @IamIamIam @Kristy_K @Balibee146 @rabbitprincess @MrsMalaprop @Mtroiano 4y

merelybookish @TheBookHippie @Sunraven @catebutler @slategreyskies @teainthelibrary @Panic70 4y

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GingerAntics I quite enjoyed York‘s recounting of the events of RII and then staking his claim. That would certainly change the next play/the rest of this one if we just switched kings, though. 4y

merelybookish Thinking about this act and who is paying attention to what. It feels like everyone is busy paying attention to something/someone that they are missing something else. Except maybe the Duke of York who is carefully observing all that is going on. 4y

GingerAntics I felt like there was a lot of torturing people in one way or another in this act. Whipping people, burning people, hanging people, splitting up Gloucester and his wife. This act isn‘t exactly the best of humanity. 4y

merelybookish @GingerAntics Isn't this technically a tetralogy of plays with the last one being Richard the Third? 4y

merelybookish @GingerAntics Good point! A lot of violence and all dispensed without much care. 4y

batsy My allegiance lies with Simpcox! No honestly, it was too funny, but then him and his wife getting whipped went from farce to violence pretty quick. I also found York's claim to the throne really funny; just the way he listed everything down like a walking textbook. I found the tone of this Act really interesting; I don't think I'm supposed to find that York bit funny, for sure, but everything feels like satire. And yes, the Cardinal's the worst! 4y

mollyrotondo I was so happy there was a breakdown explaining why York is the rightful heir to the thrown. I‘m always getting confused so that scene cleared a lot up for me. I did not like the scene with Simpcox. Or I‘ll say I did not like how the king‘s men antagonized him. But Simpcox was making it all up, right? And then the battle between Peter and his boss (forget his name). It was just savagery as if there was no government ruling. 4y

mollyrotondo And then Henry just sits there watching it all happen and forgetting that HE is the king. He could make a ruling on something. But instead everyone else is making decisions and Henry just says sure. His lack of authority means everyone tears each other apart because no one seems to understand how law works. 4y

merelybookish @batsy Yes, initially I thought Simpcox was there for some comedy relief but then...nope. Or maybe the violence would have been funnier to an Elizabethan audience? There was a similar genealogy in an earlier history play, breaking down why one of the Henry's was the rightful king of France. I find them tedious but can imagine the sense of accomplishment Shakespeare must have felt managing to write it out in verse! 4y

Graywacke @batsy “What plain proceedings is more plain than this” - was Warwick, after all York‘s convoluted explanations, being a satirical? 🙂 4y

merelybookish @mollyrotondo Yes, that's a great point about how there is lawlessness on all levels. When the king is weak, all of society suffers. I feel Henry has his head in the clouds. He is not malicious or conniving. He just is trusting that things are as they should be. 4y

Graywacke @merelybookish your intro has me rethinking the commoners drama. Gloucester seeing through Simpcox, but failing to see his wive‘s gimmick - a parallel? Gloucester is where my sympathies lay. I like his integrity and emotions. But as much as I am entertained/annoyed by H vi‘s cluelessness, the Duchess tells Gloucester he is essentially the same. (The king maybe learned his cluelessness from Gloucester?) 4y

merelybookish @Graywacke Indeed! 🤣 I'm sure you could play it either way on stage but satire would seem appropriate after that discourse! 4y

Lcsmcat @batsy The Simpcox scene felt like Punch and Judy shows to me. They‘re supposed to be funny, and many people find them so even now. I suspect a crowd that enjoyed bear baiting as a spot would have found it pure comedy. But to modern sensibilities they are uncomfortably violent. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I had the same thought and like @merelybookish would think the actor could play it either way. But how would the original company have played it? 🤷🏻‍♀️ 4y

Graywacke @merelybookish the cardinal is represents to me the rot in this reign. He has stayed in character, at least - a villain through and through. 4y

merelybookish @Graywacke Yes, Gloucester seems the only true subject amidst a gaggle of schemers. I don't feel things bode well for him. And that's an interesting point, perhaps like th King he suffers from a naive faith that all will be well. Or rather instilled that belief in the king. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @merelybookish how _should_ Warwick play it? Fun question. 4y

Graywacke @merelybookish subversive thinking 😉 4y

mollyrotondo @merelybookish Yes Henry is not malicious he is just overly trusting and naive. And yes @Graywacke I think this is most likely correct that Gloucester is still living in the old valiant world, taught this to Henry, and now both are unprepared for this infighting amongst their court and the neglect of duty to all. 4y

batsy @Graywacke Yes, that was tongue in cheek wasn't it 😆 Also, great point about the Cardinal representing the rot of the reign ... He seems to ooze it in every scene. 4y

batsy @Lcsmcat Oh, yes! That's a good comparison. So disturbing but probably seen as good ol' entertainment for audiences back then. 4y

Graywacke @merelybookish going back to an earlier comment you made that I‘m appreciating more now - it is notable how busy this play is and how unclear its direction and yet how aware and clear York is. It seems he as, at least momentarily, has become the one who knows, and the one stabilizing the foggy plot. 4y

LitStephanie @GingerAntics @batsy yeah the punishments were harsh. I went to a museum of medieval crime and punishment in Germany pre Covid, which might as well have been called the museum of misogyny and torture. That stuff was written into law. I feel like this act was showing Gloucester as a man too rigidly adherent to what is lawful and "right." 4y

batsy @LitStephanie That exhibit would have been so interesting and terrifying. Amazing indeed to learn how much was codified into law. 4y

59 likes28 comments

Graywacke

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

No clue why i‘m so cold (it‘s 54° out, and ~68° inside), but was happy to read Act II this am.

A line I‘m noting:
“To hide such malice with such holiness”

(Also, 2 lines before: “Tantaene animis coelestibus irae?” - which Signet translates as “So much anger in heavenly souls?” Maybe better rearranged: “have heavenly souls such anger?”)

#shakespearereadalong

merelybookish, GingerAntics

GingerAntics My edition translated it as “Is there so much anger in heavenly minds?” and attributed it to Virgil‘s Aeneid, 1.11 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics Cool that it‘s Virgil. I need to look up the context. Book 1 is the departure from Troy. Also interesting. Soul=mind? Roughly? 4y

merelybookish I really don't like the Cardinal. 4y

See All 18 Comments

GingerAntics @Graywacke it is interesting that Latin uses the same word for both. I‘m guessing that dates from the pre-Christian era, when it was common to believe the soul was in the head (gives a whole different meaning to taking the heads of losers in battle). I suppose that also makes sense post-Christian transition, as the mind and the soul are seen to be the things that elevate humans above animals. 4y

GingerAntics @merelybookish he is a bit of a pain 4y

Graywacke @merelybookish @GingerAntics The cardinal has a long lineage of corruption to protect. 🙂 ( Ok, also, convenient to be critical of Catholics in that environ) 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics : which is funny - that the word separating humans and animals, “animis”, led, in English, to “animal” (edited) 4y

Graywacke (It‘s too easy to hit send by mistake. Hopefully that above makes sense now. ) 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke @merelybookish I suppose being critical of catholics would have been expected in Elizabethan England. 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke right? Latin‘s ties to English are sometimes almost comical. 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics for what it‘s worth, it‘s line 8 in the Aeneid and it roughly closes the intro. I‘ll try to quote in context 4y

Graywacke Aeneid opening-free translation: I sing of arms and the man, he who, exiled by fate,
first came from the coast of Troy to Italy, and to
Lavinian shores – hurled about endlessly by land and sea,
by the will of the gods, by cruel Juno‘s remorseless anger, long suffering also in war, until he founded a city
and brought his gods to Latium: from that the Latin people ... 4y

Graywacke came, the lords of Alba Longa, the walls of noble Rome.
Muse, tell me the cause: how was she offended in her divinity, how was she grieved, the Queen of Heaven, to drive a man, noted for virtue, to endure such dangers, to face so many trials? Can there be such anger in the minds of the gods? 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke that is a much different context. 4y

Graywacke Last line also:

Can heav'nly minds such high resentment show?
--
Line 11 (translated by John Dryden)
--
Can heavenly natures nourish hate So fierce, so blindly passionate?
--
Translated by John Conington
—
Can heavenly spirits cherish resentment so dire? - free online 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics a few more above ☺️ 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics yeah, it is different in context and now i need to rethink. Our Catholic cardinal an angry Juno spurning what became Rome (and, mythically, another Trojan refugee comes to England and founds London) 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke how does one seemingly simple sentence have so many meanings? Sheesh. I suppose it‘s translation vs transliteration. That cardinal really annoys me. I‘m trying to figure out if Shakespeare means for these cardinals to be catholic or one of the cardinals in the Church of England. 4y

45 likes18 comments

Daisey

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

I took a photo of my Sunday morning breakfast with Shakespeare and then ran out of time to post before church. This first act had plenty of plotting, and I‘m interested see where it goes from here.

#BookAndBreakfast #ShakespeareReadalong #ArkAngelShakespeare

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merelybookish

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

🎵Wishin' and schemin' and plottin' and connivin'/Plannin' and dreamin' each night of the crown.🎶
(With apologies to Dusty Springfield 😁 but couldn't resist.)
Well #shakespearereadalong folks, we have intrigue!! Henry marries Margaret and the plotting begins. Whom to trust? Whom to believe? Is Henry as clueless as he seems? Did anyone else get Lady MacBeth vibes from the Duchess? And whose side are we on? Thoughts? @GingerAntics @Graywacke

merelybookish I realize I'm probably supposed to dislike the Duchess of Glou but her line to the queen "I could set my ten commandments in your face" (I.iii.142) was campy goodness! 4y

merelybookish @Lcsmcat @batsy @TheBookHippie @Cuilin @Daisey @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @jewright @CoffeeNBooks @mollyrotondo @LitStephanie @Melismatic @saresmoore @Liz_M @Gezemice @rabbitprincess @Wife @Susannah @wanderinglynn @Trashcanman @IamIamIam @Kristy_K @MoonWitch94 4y

merelybookish @readinginthedark @Jess_Read_This @MrsMalaprop @Balibee146 @slategreyskies @teainthelibrary @Mtroiano @Sunraven @catebutler @Panic70 4y

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Cuilin Absolutely thought of Lady Macbeth, and I like her. What‘s that about? Plus not at all a fan of Margaret and Henry is insipid. Enjoying the scheming too. 4y

merelybookish @Cuilin I feel like amid all the dukes and lords and cardinals, the Duchess stands out! Plus consulting witches and conjurers. She is not playing around! Meanwhile Margaret just seems petty and cruel, which is a less endearing. 4y

Graywacke It‘s quite a line by the Duchess but seems she undermined herself by carelessly overstepping. I think Lady Macbeth was levels sharper. Convoluted as all these power plays are, I‘m happy I‘m still somehow able to follow without too much trouble. 4y

mollyrotondo @Graywacke haha yes! I‘m surprised I‘m able to follow all the scheming too! But proud of myself. 4y

mollyrotondo I truly cannot stand Margaret. She is just despicable. She doesn‘t like that Henry is more of a peace and love kind of guy instead of a brute and traitor like Suffolk. Margaret is also so catty. Drops her fan and then hits Duchess Gloucester?! Uhhh she isn‘t even admirable in her power play. I hope we see her comeuppance 4y

Lcsmcat I‘m not a fan of the Duchess. She strikes me as grasping AND stupid. It‘s obvious they‘re playing her. And I‘m tired of the “my wife made me do it” excuse that goes back to Adam & Eve. If you want to seize a crown, have the guts to do it in your own name. #unpopularopinion 4y

TheBookHippie That song is perfect !!!! I‘m evil I‘ve always admired and LOVED Lady MacBeth probably due to reading it at 15 😅 So I think I got them all sorted out and agree the Duchess is no Lady MacBeth ....yet. Massively good effort on her part though. I‘m thinking I‘ll like this better than part one. @Cuilin what does it say that we love Lady MacBeth?! 😂🤣 I love a good scheme. 4y

Graywacke @TheBookHippie Lady Macbeth is terrific. (Maybe terrifically evil - but really that just made her one of her milieu. The rest is bad PR. 🙂) I don‘t have a sense of Margaret. For one thing, as she is already queen, I‘m not sure what‘s she trying to accomplish. But also I feel that other than a sneaky punch we don‘t know her yet. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat no complaints here on that Duchess analogy. 4y

GingerAntics 🤣😂🤣 that song is perfect! I wasn‘t aware that Shakespeare did cat fights quite so well. There are definitely some lady MacBeth moments in here. I‘m not her biggest fan, but then I‘m not so sure about Margaret either. 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke I was trying to figure that out. She was Queen before they got married? So why is she marrying this (other?) King? 4y

TheBookHippie @Graywacke Ha. Yes it‘s the bad PR!!! I am interested in seeing what is going to happen. Way more intriguing to me than our last read! 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics She was sort of a pretender princess. Margaret‘s dad was a “king” of Naples and other places he had no actual power in. He was essentially king of nothing, making her princess of nothing, before the wedding. (Per Shakespeare-history at least. I don‘t know the true history) 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke hm. So King and thus princess in name only. Hm. I‘m going to have to go check her out now. I wonder why Shakespeare made her a queen before they were married. 4y

batsy I'm super behind and haven't started yet! But will come right back to comment when I do 🙂 4y

merelybookish @batsy Look forward to your thoughts! The good news is that it's not too taxing. In spite of all the many characters! 4y

merelybookish @Graywacke Lady MacBeth was better at working with her husband. So far, it appears the Duke of Gloucester might be the only person NOT angling for the crown. 4y

merelybookish @mollyrotondo Agreed. Perhaps the foreign queen is an easy target but I'm not above falling for it. 🤓 4y

merelybookish @Lcsmcat I get what you're saying about not being the brightest bulb amongst the schemers. Still she gave me Alexis Carrington Dynasty vibes and so I can't help but like her. 4y

merelybookish @TheBookHippie I agree that this play is better so far! And I feel I've come to like Lady MacBeth more over the years! Knowing what I know now. 😉 4y

merelybookish @GingerAntics A little ear 🐛 for your day! 😁 4y

TheBookHippie @merelybookish DYNASTY !!!!! 4y

mollyrotondo I watched the this first Act of the BBC version and the face Margaret makes when she first hears Henry speak upon first meeting him is priceless. Her disappointment and disrespect of Henry clicked for me faster after watching it performed. 4y

batsy Finally finished Act 1 and I'm loving the twist on the Dusty lyrics! Also, the Dynasty comparison is so apt. The Duchess is very Joan Collins' Alexis atm ? I liked how she was like "What's your problem now?" after describing her dream to Gloucester. I enjoyed the witchery and conjuring too; totally ott and campy. Margaret is unfortunately of the unlikeable type of petty for now. As for the men, they're all interchangeable for the moment ? 4y

LitStephanie @mollyrotondo I will have to watch that! Been awhile since I have seen this performed, and it's a little hard to picture the stage management of the scenes when one person is talking smack about another person who is apparently there but I guess doesn't hear. 4y

LitStephanie @Cuilin agreed. Margaret is mean, but Henry is an idiot. "Oh, one of the two of you can be Regent, I don't care who." Really? That is how you create factions! 4y

LitStephanie @Graywacke Margaret is queen, but I think she is pretty disappointed in her husband's utter lack of kingly qualities and so trying to take the reins herself. 4y

Graywacke @LitStephanie she is certainly underwhelmed. 4y

49 likes31 comments

GingerAntics

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

Getting started on part 2
#Shakespeare #HenryVIpart2 #shakespearereadalong

17 likes

merelybookish

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

Sorry for the delay! Here's the schedule Henry VI, Part II.
Act 1 - Feb 28
Act 2 - March 7
Act 3 - March 14
Act 4 - March 21
Act 5 - March 28
I look forward to leading you into battle! 😁
@GingerAntics @Graywacke #shakespearereadalong

merelybookish @batsy @TheBookHippie @Lcsmcat @mollyrotondo @LitStephanie @jewright @Cuilin @Liz_M @saresmoore @MoonWitch94 @Gezemice @Daisey @rabbitprincess @Mtroiano @readinginthedark @Sunraven @Melismatic @catebutler @Trashcanman @IamIamIam @Susannah @teainthelibrary @slategreyskies @Kristy_K @Wife @wanderinglynn 4y

merelybookish @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Panic70 4y

merelybookish @CoffeeNBooks @kathedron @Balibee146 @MrsMalaprop 4y

See All 33 Comments

TheBookHippie Looks good. 4y

merelybookish @TheBookHippie I'm glad. Felt bad that I dropped the ball a bit. 4y

merelybookish Also how are my Texan co-hosts doing? @GingerAntics @Graywacke 4y

TheBookHippie @merelybookish I‘m still writing January as the date 🤣 4y

merelybookish @TheBookHippie I get it! 😅 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie the only reason I know it‘s February is because Joe Biden is president, so the president isn‘t in the news every single day or something stupid. 💀 4y

Graywacke @merelybookish I‘m grateful for the week off. Recovering from 1st 40+ hour “rolling” blackout that left it 50° inside the house and cost us our hot water heater. What will the next one bring? Anyway, ready for Feb 28! 4y

GingerAntics @merelybookish I‘m up in Minnesota now, but amazingly, because of the craziness down there we had rolling blackouts on Tuesday to avoid over loading the grid. 1,100 miles away and somehow we‘re still on the same grid. Who knew? 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics (shh. That‘s a secret. tx is supposed to be entirely on its own grid to avoid the “interstate” regulations that would have prevented these blackouts. You‘re supposed to pretend there‘s another cause for thwm. Oops, ranting. Sorry. Back to war. Onward... ⚔️) Also. That‘s crazy. Sorry! 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke just read Rick Perry‘s really stupid comments that Texans would prefer to be without power for even longer to avoid any sort of federal aid. 🤦🏼‍♀️🥃 I didn‘t like that man as governor, and he hasn‘t gotten any smarter since he left office. I had no idea you were in Texas as well. 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics perry, oye. But it hasn‘t gotten any better since. I didn‘t know you had a tx connection either. I‘ve been in Houston 20+ yrs. 4y

merelybookish @Graywacke Ugh! The TX power grid looks pretty sketch and ill-equipped! Hope there's warner temps and stable power ahead! 4y

merelybookish @GingerAntics I didn't realize you were in MN now. Or that MN was connected to TX'S power grid. I thought it was independent. So far, we have power in CO. 4y

GingerAntics @merelybookish apparently the grid from the panhandle stretches up into the Dakotas and since Moorhead is right in the boarder, we‘re part of that grid. Sketchy and ill-equipped is a good way to describe the power grid down in TX. If someone in a car sneezes, on the street out front of the power plant, the power will go out. I lived the first 13.5 years of my life in MN and we had the power go out once the whole time. 4y

GingerAntics @merelybookish the power goes out at least once annually in TX. It went out twice in 2019. Any time it‘s too cold or too hot, there are rolling blackouts. It‘s madness. I spent 20 years telling people to stop boating the heat and A/C. Set the thermostat to 68-72 degrees and leave it bloody well alone. (edited) 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke we moved to Dallas in 2000. We were there for 20 years, 3 months, but who was counting? lol 4y

batsy @Graywacke Ever since I saw this tweet I've been trying to read up on how exactly it's different in Texas https://twitter.com/BWJones/status/1361689319082131459?s=19 (Looking in from the outside, one took the *United* States part for granted!) Hope the situation improves real soon for you and everyone there. 4y

jewright Looking forward to this. I hope you all get your power back and stay warm. The weather has been madness this past week. 4y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼🤍 4y

TheBookHippie We lose power several times a winter due to ice .... Michigan 🥶 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics ah. The tx panhandle isn‘t isolated like most of the rest of the state. (Things I‘m learning...) @batsy yes. True and deranged. (The regulations they (we 😔) are avoiding include measures to avoid exactly what we‘re experiencing - namely winter prep.) 4y

Graywacke @merelybookish yes, it is. One more major freeze tonight. (Maybe 20°). Then warmer. Hopefully we keep power. 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa Thank you 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics I thought Perry‘s comment was insane, and then I saw Ted Cruz getting on a plane to go to Cancun and realized I had severally underestimated the level of Texan politician insanity. 4y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa oh my got, I have no clue how Cruz keeps getting elected. He claims he was being a good father, but where was his wife? He was being derelict in his duty, as usual. He is such a waste. 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics I know! Just since I typed that I saw he got a plane trip back and blamed his daughters (he was JUST taking them to Cancun for a play date since they are off of school this week)😂. The reporters are already on the story, nope his original flight back was days later, but he changed it after the uproar and blamed his daughters. But yet, he‘s the one taking his daughters to Cancun during a pandemic “for a play date with friends”⤵️ 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ..but continually rails against the elite. Bwahahaha. Worst cover story, spin, public relations debacle I‘ve ever seen.... you really couldn‘t make this stuff up! Shakespearean level tragedy stuff! (edited) 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ↪️ actually no, probably the worst was the guy who was “hiking the Appalachian Trail”, but was really in Argentina with his mistress and got busted when they couldn‘t find him on the trail and got worried that he had been injured or something. 🙄 4y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa yup! Talk about privilege. School got canceled for the week, we want to go to cancun. Shakespeare could have made a character like that, but everyone would have said it was a little over the top and no elected official can be quite that stupid. You just can‘t write this stuff. 4y

LitStephanie Very much enjoying the TX chatter, LOL (I live somewhere where winter storms and resulting power outages are just something you deal with), and looking forward to discussing H2 with y'all soon! 4y

53 likes33 comments

DarcysMom

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

pick

🌟🌟🌟
#Shakespeare2020

40 likes

Dogearedcopy

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

Actual conversation this morning!

ME: There is but one egg in the crate!

DH: Methinks someone has been reading Shakespeare again.

ME: Methinks the person who used the *eleven* other eggs should go buy a dozen more or *heads are going to roll!*“

DH: Witch.

ME: [Staring hard] Heads. Will. Roll.

Eyelit Love it! 😂 5y

sprainedbrain 😂😂😂 5y

32 likes2 comments

Dogearedcopy

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

pick

In 2H6, Richard Plantagenet finally makes his move: inciting Jack Cade‘s Rebellion, amassing an army of Irish kerns and, openly challenging King Henry‘s legitimacy to the throne in court!

I think “Henry VI, Part II” is a boring name for this play of action and intrigue. I would name it, “Heads are Gonna Roll!” 😜

31 likes

Dogearedcopy

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare

So, I popped open a bottle of Samuel Smith's apple cider and noticed the York rose on the bottle cap! Reading the label, I found out that the brewery is in N. Yorks, England. I'm guessing the War of the Roses still rages on...

#TheLesserKnownButVeryImportantBattleOfTheBrews

#Shakespeare2020Project

(And yes, I'm aware that there's a copy of 1H6 in the background even though I'm reading and tagging 2H6! It was handy and color coordinates!) :-D

20 likes

DarcysMom

Henry VI Part 2 | William Shakespeare