sherlockholmes

The Adventure of the Cardboard Box | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes @Cuilin @LitsyEvents

Interesting discussion yesterday, Sherlockians! Our discussion for “The Adventure of the Cardboard Box“ will be next Saturday, 3/8, and will be led by @dabbe.
*Spoiler Alert to summary/analysis: https://shorturl.at/9ZVcm

Also, there IS another set of stories after HIS LAST BOW (THE CASE-BOOK OF SH), and I have a link to all of them, if interested: https://ignisart.com/camdenhouse/canon/9-case.htm

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Cuilin

Adventure of Wisteria Lodge | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes

@pageshifter @AnneCecilie @indoordame @librarybelle @theAromaOfBooks @Aimeesue @kelli7990 @5feet.of.fury @Read4Life @AnnR @mom2bugnbee @pageturner1 @eeclayton @erzascarletbookgasm @aroyse @dabbe

Cuilin @mollyanna @Tineke @Larkken @StayCurious @kimrenee @alldebooks @CogsOfEncouragement @catlass007 @CrystalE02 @curiouserandcurioser @Larkken 2d

Cuilin @BeeCurious @Blackink_WhitePaper @Sace @Daisey @RayHallucinogen @Born.A.Reader @Chrissyreadit @Fr3NcHtOaSt @Anishalnkspill 2d

CatLass007 I was surprised. Maybe this is Conan Doyle, passing the torch from himself to other mystery writers, not so much from Holmes to Baynes. Just a wild thought. 2d

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Librarybelle It is a bit surprising, and I think Holmes himself is a bit surprised that he met an inspector “who will go far.” Honestly, it made a nice change that someone could keep up with Sherlock Holmes. Perhaps a show that there will be others as brilliant as Holmes to carry on crime solving when Holmes no longer works cases? 2d

CogsOfEncouragement I thought this was a fun detail. I know I kept wondering if he was actually going to blunder something. It was an added twist to keep this short story from being too similar to others. Especially having SH in the shrubs and Baynes up higher in a tree observing SH undetected, that was very different. Holmes being a good sport about it was also a nice touch. 1d

dabbe @CatLass007 Agree 💯. 5h

dabbe @Librarybelle 🎯! 5h

dabbe @CogsOfEncouragement It was nice to see Holmes's arrogance in check in this one; he heartily congratulated Baynes and welcomed him to the detective fold. 5h

24 likes8 comments

Cuilin

Adventure of Wisteria Lodge | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes

@pageshifter @AnneCecilie @indoordame @librarybelle @theAromaOfBooks @Aimeesue @kelli7990 @5feet.of.fury @Read4Life @AnnR @mom2bugnbee @pageturner1 @eeclayton @erzascarletbookgasm @aroyse @dabbe @cuilin @mollyanna @Tineke @Larkken @StayCurious @kimrenee @alldebooks @CogsOfEncouragement @catlass007 @CrystalE02 @curiouserandcurioser @Larkken @BeeCurious @Blackink_WhitePaper @Sace @Daisey @RayHallucinogen @Born.A.Reader

Cuilin @Chrissyreadit @Fr3NcHtOaSt @Anishalnkspill 2d

CatLass007 I suppose it was a social norm. That doesn‘t make it right, especially in these times when casual racism is accepted and virulent racism is coming out of the woodwork. We need to be able to point to this and say, “This is unacceptable in the here and now.” Was Conan Doyle ever married? Because Holmes comes off as misogynistic and I wonder why. 2d

Cuilin @CatLass007 Yes, he was married. His first wife died of TB and he married his second wife a year later. 2d

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CatLass007 Hmmm. 2d

Librarybelle I‘d say social norms. As much as I love classics, it‘s important to acknowledge that the works may contain language and societal attitudes deemed today (or that should be deemed today) as highly inappropriate and incorrect. 2d

CogsOfEncouragement SH states at one point that Scott Eccles was chosen to be the guest the night of these events because he was the type of person the police would absolutely believe. He was there for a perfect alibi - the whole thing about 1am. I feel this highlights the issues of the time. SH discusses how it was so true, Eccles tells a wild story and is believed immediately. Eccles was reaping benefits of this privilege and Doyle pointed it out more than once. 1d

Cuilin @CogsOfEncouragement yes!!! he didn‘t just highlight the prejudice he acknowledged privilege!!! 1d

dabbe @Cuilin @CogsOfEncouragement And the on-the-scene detectives didn't question him further; they just believe him because of who he was. 🤔 Wonder if that type of pandering still occurs today. 🙄 5h

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Cuilin

Adventure of Wisteria Lodge | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes

@pageshifter @AnneCecilie @indoordame @librarybelle @theAromaOfBooks @Aimeesue @kelli7990 @5feet.of.fury @Read4Life @AnnR @mom2bugnbee @pageturner1 @eeclayton @erzascarletbookgasm @aroyse @dabbe @cuilin @mollyanna @Daisey @Larkken @StayCurious @kimrenee @alldebooks @CogsOfEncouragement @catlass007 @CrystalE02 @curiouserandcurioser @Larkken @BeeCurious @Blackink_WhitePaper @Sace @Daisey @RayHallucinogen @Born.A.Reader

Cuilin @Chrissyreadit @Fr3NcHtOaSt @Anishalnkspill 2d

Librarybelle Overall, I liked this one. I‘d like to know the significance of that gruesome bird, unless I missed Holmes explaining it in the narrative. 2d

CogsOfEncouragement I enjoyed this one. I read this collection about twelve years ago. I didn't remember this one at all and had all sorts of incorrect guesses.

@Librarybelle At the very end, Holmes explains he spent time reading up at the British Museum. SH went on to explain it was a voodoo ritual, and “a true voodoo-worshiper attempts nothing of importance without certain sacrifices...“ 1d

Librarybelle Thanks, @CogsOfEncouragement ! I thought he meant the other figure that was found, so I missed the connection! 1d

dabbe This one was not one of my faves. The resolution part seemed beyond-over-the-top and too quickly explained. 5h

20 likes5 comments

LitsyEvents

The Adventure of Wisteria Lodge | Arthur Conan Doyle

repost for @dabbe:

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes @Cuilin

Now, on to the second-to-last set of stories: HIS LAST BOW. The discussion for “The Adventure of Wisteria Lodge“ will be next Saturday, 3/1, and will be led by @Cuilin. We've almost read the ENTIRE canon! 🤩🤩🤩

Link to analysis (spoiler alerts): https://shorturl.at/VhKV8

dabbe Thank you! 🤩 7d

30 likes1 comment

dabbe

The Adventure of Wisteria Lodge | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes @Cuilin

Hello, Sherlockians! Great discussion so far today re: THE VALLEY OF FEAR. Hope to read more of your thoughts soon!

Now, on to the second-to-last set of stories: HIS LAST BOW. The discussion for “The Adventure of Wisteria Lodge“ will be next Saturday, 3/1, and will be led by @Cuilin. We've almost read the ENTIRE canon! 🤩🤩🤩

Link to analysis (spoiler alerts): https://shorturl.at/VhKV8

Daisey, erzascarletbookgasm, CogsOfEncouragement, AnneCecilie, Born.A.Reader, Aimeesue, Larkken, Librarybelle, mom2bugnbee, Chrissyreadit, Read4life, StayCurious, Sace, CatLass007, Mollyanna, curiouserandcurioser, eeclayton, dabbe, IndoorDame, kelli7990, TheAromaofBooks, 5feet.of.fury, Tineke, Fr3NcHtOaSt, Blackink_WhitePaper, RayHallucinogen, Pageturner1, PageShifter, AllDebooks, AnnR, kimrenee, aroyse, CrystalE02

CogsOfEncouragement Thank you for the post. My copy has The Cardboard Box as the first short story. I would have read the wrong one. As always, thanks for hosting this enjoyable buddy read. 1w

Librarybelle Thank you! 1w

dabbe @CogsOfEncouragement “The Cardboard Box“ has been in different places in the canon. I think it depends on UK vs. USA editions, too. I believe we're going in the American order. YW! 🤩 1w

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dabbe @Librarybelle YW! 🤩 1w

CatLass007 @dabbe Is part 2 of Wisteria Lodge The Tiger of San Pedro? Is The Cardboard Box known by another name? Because the collection I have, The Definitive Audio Collection, does not include a story by that name. 2d

dabbe @CatLass007 “TAo Wisteria Lodge“ is a 2-part length story, the 1st part being “The Singular Experience of Mr. John Scott Eccles“ and the 2nd part being “The Tiger of San Pedro.“TAo the Cardboard Box“ was originally published in Great Britain as the 2nd of 12 stories in THE MEMOIRS OF SHERLOCK HOLMES, but it was published in the USA as the 2nd of 8 stories in HIS LAST BOW. The title of the story is the same. Does that help? 2d

CatLass007 I figured out the part about Wisteria Lodge. But the stories in The Casebook of Sherlock Holmes in my collection aren‘t in the same order as on the chart from June of last year and Cardboard Box isn‘t in the table of contents. I think I need to have a few words with Stephen Fry. 2d

CatLass007 Nope. Wait. I found it. I had to back way up. 2d

47 likes8 comments

dabbe

The Valley of Fear | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes @Cuilin

Thoughts, Sherlockians?

Daisey, erzascarletbookgasm, CogsOfEncouragement, AnneCecilie, Born.A.Reader, Aimeesue, Larkken, Librarybelle, mom2bugnbee, Chrissyreadit, Read4life, StayCurious, Sace, CatLass007, Mollyanna, curiouserandcurioser, eeclayton, dabbe, IndoorDame, kelli7990, TheAromaofBooks, 5feet.of.fury, Tineke, Fr3NcHtOaSt, Blackink_WhitePaper, RayHallucinogen, Pageturner1, PageShifter, AllDebooks, AnnR, kimrenee, aroyse, CrystalE02

Librarybelle Does Conan Doyle have an interest in the American West? It‘s considered very unlawful in this period of time. We know that Conan Doyle had a love/hate relationship with Holmes, so maybe this is his way of diverting to an interest of his. 🤷🏻‍♀️ 1w

eeclayton Why, oh, why, indeed. Poor McMurdo, I was hoping for a happier ending for him.
I was also annoyed by the insta-love between Ettie and McMurdo, especially with him openly joining (pretending to join) the Scowrers. Or might he have told her the truth in secret? 1w

dabbe @Librarybelle I did read an article that stated Doyle was fascinated with cults, gangs, the occult and such (need I say “fairies“?), and I love your point about the American West being unlawful and gang-like. I bet that appealed to him greatly, and he found a way to get his Sherlock in the mix. 1w

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dabbe @eeclayton IKR? He goes through all kinds of stuff, lives to tell the tale, so to speak, and then dies in a half-hearted paragraph at the end. It's almost like Doyle got tired of writing the story and just wanted it done with.

Agree 💯 re: Ettie. I wonder if she was even necessary? She also got a quick write-off--just like Watson's Mary. Women are not treated well in Doyle's stories, are they? 1w

CatLass007 I understand that Mary died, but I can‘t remember even a sentence mentioning her death. Just all of a sudden, Watson was sharing rooms with Holmes again. 1w

AnneCecilie I guess I was hoping that the hero would survive. Ettie was already engaged to another member of the Scowrers when McMurdo arrived. It did give McMurdo an enemy to “steal” a fiancé 1w

dabbe @CatLass007 Here's the ONLY reference to Mary's death from “The Empty House“:
“In some manner he had learned of my own sad bereavement, and his sympathy was shown in his manner rather than in his words. 'Work is the best antidote to sorrow, my dear Watson, and I have a piece of work for us both to-night which, if we can bring it to a successful conclusion, will in itself justify a man's life on this planet.' “ Her name's not even mentioned! 😱 1w

CatLass007 @dabbe Thank you. I guess that totally went over my head. 1w

dabbe @CatLass007 Mine, too! You gave me the impetus to look it up! I thank you! 🤗 1w

CatLass007 You‘re welcome. 1w

eeclayton @CatLass007 @dabbe It went over my head while I was reading The Empty House, too. I had to go back and reread, like, wait, where did you say Mary is again? And then I got angry, the poor girl would have deserved a better fate. So would Ettie. (edited) 7d

CatLass007 @eeclayton Agreed. 7d

dabbe @CatLass007 @eeclayton Doyle's portrayal of women is a wee bit misogynistic, don't you think? 7d

CatLass007 Very. 7d

eeclayton @dabbe @CatLass007 They are definitely no more than plot devices, brought in and got rid of whenever it's convenient for the story Doyle wants to tell. 6d

dabbe @eeclayton #womenprops 😡 6d

41 likes16 comments

dabbe

The Valley of Fear | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes @Cuilin

Thoughts, Sherlockians?

Daisey, erzascarletbookgasm, CogsOfEncouragement, AnneCecilie, Born.A.Reader, Aimeesue, Larkken, Librarybelle, mom2bugnbee, Chrissyreadit, Read4life, StayCurious, Sace, CatLass007, Mollyanna, curiouserandcurioser, eeclayton, dabbe, IndoorDame, kelli7990, TheAromaofBooks, 5feet.of.fury, Tineke, Fr3NcHtOaSt, Blackink_WhitePaper, RayHallucinogen, Pageturner1, PageShifter, AllDebooks, AnnR, kimrenee, aroyse, CrystalE02

Librarybelle Moriarty is as close to a match for Holmes in regard to wit—according to Holmes‘ thoughts. It seemed odd that Holmes brought in Moriarty, so I thought I had missed something… 1w

eeclayton I was disappointed that Moriarty never got to be more than a bunch of throwaway comments in this book. I think it would've been better to omit him. 1w

dabbe @Librarybelle @eeclayton Plus the continuity errors that ensued! In “The Final Problem“, when we meet Moriarty for the first time, Watson has never heard of him. And since Moriarty dies and his organization is smashed at the end of that tale, THE VALLEY OF FEAR must be set before “The Final Problem“. Yet in this story, Watson already knows of the professor, and listens patiently to Sherlock's lengthy oral treatise about him. 1w

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CatLass007 I thought the introduction of Moriarty could‘ve been left out without a bit of loss to the storytelling. In fact, the storytelling might have benefited if Moriarty had been left out. I also was wondering if the Pinkerton detective had arranged his own disappearance to make everyone believe he was dead. 1w

dabbe @CatLass007 Your idea seems founded more in reality since Douglas knew they'd be after him the rest of his life. Just having Moriarty have him killed out of the blue is too far-fetched for me. 1w

AnneCecilie I thought, maybe even hoped, that Moriarty would have a more prominent role in the story. But it does create a tension to have him mentioned so early in part 1. I kept waiting for him to show up, which he never did. I think, for me, some of the tension in the story would have disappeared if he wasn‘t mentioned 1w

dabbe @AnneCecilie Good point. That tension kept me reading for sure! 🤩 1w

37 likes7 comments

dabbe

The Valley of Fear | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes @Cuilin

Thoughts, Sherlockians?

Daisey, erzascarletbookgasm, CogsOfEncouragement, AnneCecilie, Born.A.Reader, Aimeesue, Larkken, Librarybelle, mom2bugnbee, Chrissyreadit, Read4life, StayCurious, Sace, CatLass007, Mollyanna, curiouserandcurioser, eeclayton, dabbe, IndoorDame, kelli7990, TheAromaofBooks, 5feet.of.fury, Tineke, Fr3NcHtOaSt, Blackink_WhitePaper, RayHallucinogen, Pageturner1, PageShifter, AllDebooks, AnnR, kimrenee, aroyse, CrystalE02

Librarybelle It was a surprise to me, but I‘m terrible at guessing things, so maybe it wasn‘t as big as I thought it was! 😂 1w

eeclayton I was surprised, too 😁 1w

dabbe @Librarybelle @eeclayton I had read it years ago, totally forgot the surprise and was completely gobsmacked again! What does that say about my mental retentive powers? 😂 1w

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CogsOfEncouragement This was a first time read for me. I had other guesses that were wrong. Enjoyed the surprise. 1w

CatLass007 I was not surprised by the revelation of the identity of the Pinkerton detective. But I kind of blame that on Stephen Fry‘s introduction to the novel. 1w

dabbe @CogsOfEncouragement I did, too--the second time around! 🤩 1w

dabbe @CatLass007 I've heard how good Fry is. I should listen to one of the stories coming up. 🤩 1w

CatLass007 He is marvelous! 1w

AnneCecilie I was very surprised and didn‘t see that twist coming at all, but I‘m terrible at seeing twists 1w

dabbe @AnneCecilie #ditto! 🎯 1w

38 likes10 comments

dabbe

The Valley of Fear | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes @Cuilin

Thoughts, Sherlockians?

Daisey, erzascarletbookgasm, CogsOfEncouragement, AnneCecilie, Born.A.Reader, Aimeesue, Larkken, Librarybelle, mom2bugnbee, Chrissyreadit, Read4life, StayCurious, Sace, CatLass007, Mollyanna, curiouserandcurioser, eeclayton, dabbe, IndoorDame, kelli7990, TheAromaofBooks, 5feet.of.fury, Tineke, Fr3NcHtOaSt, Blackink_WhitePaper, RayHallucinogen, Pageturner1, PageShifter, AllDebooks, AnnR, kimrenee, aroyse, CrystalE02

Librarybelle Definitely a work of its times and is a window to the real thoughts of society at that time. Sad. 1w

Cuilin Surprising that Doyle was furthering the negative stereotyping at the time as both his parents were of Irish Catholic descent. I think his mother was Irish. Doyle is a name from County Wicklow in Ireland. During this time, of course there were many rebellions against British rule in Ireland so is it an attempt to distance himself. 1w

dabbe @Librarybelle @Cuilin Both Doyle's parents were of Irish Catholic descent. He's considered British but was born in Scotland. I've tried to find what he saw himself mostly as, and the results are murky. He did portray some of the Irish sympathetically, but it's hard to ignore the stereotypes. Is it also his views towards “American“ Irish or America in general? 1w

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Librarybelle Good thought, @dabbe …does it have something to do with “American?” 1w

CatLass007 The Freemasons, the organization on which the Free Men is based, are anti-Catholic. Perhaps that is why Doyle presents such a negative view of the Irish. The religion of the members of the Free Men is never mentioned, but perhaps they are Protestants. I know a little about the Masons because my Mom was Catholic and my Dad was Protestant and a Mason, which obviously wasn‘t all that important to him because they had 57 happy years of marriage. 1w

dabbe @CatLass007 I wonder is The Scowrers were Irish Protestant instead of Catholic. And interesting point re: Doyle's views since he was raised as an Irish Catholic. Perhaps that could be why he portrayed this group as being anti-Catholic, though I don't remember reading much evidence of religion in this book. 1w

CatLass007 I don‘t think religion is mentioned at all in this book. But he certainly portrayed the Irish Scowrers negatively. I suspect it‘s something that readers of that era would have known about. Plus, he might not have been free to express any religious views openly. 1w

AnneCecilie I didn‘t give this much thought. I was already familiar with the British though on the Irish. And I definitely didn‘t think about the religious aspect at all. Interesting that Doyle was Catholic raised by Irish parents, I didn‘t know that @CatLass007 @Librarybelle @Cuilin @dabbe 1w

dabbe @AnneCecilie And knowing all that still makes us wonder, doesn't it? Was Doyle ultimately British over being Irish-Catholic, or was he trying to show something else with these not-so-lovely Irish stereotypes? 1w

CatLass007 @AnneCecilie @dabbe @Librarybelle @Cuilin I didn‘t know that he was Irish Catholic until we started our discussion. I did know that the Masons are very anti-Catholic so I just made the assumption that the Irish Masons in this story were Protestant. Knowing that Doyle was raised by Irish Catholic parents does help with understanding that he was so ill-disposed against the Masons. 1w

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