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A Lost Lady Part 2 : 4-9 (end of the 📖 )

She left me in a spell. Seemingly past our story climax, Cather carries it forward forcefully with the power of her words and her unexpected framings. Seen through Niel‘s eyes, Marian leaves an impression that spreads well beyond our isolated, perhaps overly judgmental, individual thoughts. As @lscmcat highlighted, she doesn‘t do one dimensional characters. Thoughts? How does she do it?

Graywacke Pictured is Lyra Wheeler-Garber-Anderson, Cather‘s nonfictional source for Marian, who had a stop in Red Cloud, NE 3w

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM @batsy @jewright @crazeedi @Tanisha_A @Caterina @Louise @Sace @Tamra @rubyslippersreads 3w

Graywacke Two of my favorite quotes coming: 3w

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Graywacke “The voice he heard behind him was her most charming; playful, affectionate, intimate, with a thrill of pleasant excitement that warmed its slight formality and burned through the common-place words like the colour in an opal. He simply held his breath while she fluttered on: “ 3w

Graywacke Niel‘s need to know everything: “He would like to call up the shade of the young Mrs. Forrester, as the witch of Endor called up Samuel‘s, and challenge it, demand the secret of that ardour; ask her whether she had really found some ever-blooming, ever-burning, ever-piercing joy, or whether it was all fine play-acting. ... “ 3w

Graywacke And, my last opening comment: Cather left me feeling a little guilty for my premature judgements last week. She may look like a blinded woodpecker at one point (I think I got that right) but there is a lot more to Marian. I feel like oversimplified last week. 3w

Graywacke Oh, and a link: Cather and the vagaries of frontier prostitution: https://cather.unl.edu/scholarship/catherstudies/11/cs011.gutske 3w

Lcsmcat Marian is certainly a complex character. I love how Cather avoids the easy judgements. We don‘t see any of the characters as all good or all evil. Niel can be judgmental, as well as altruistic; Marian cheats, yet she‘s loyal in her own way, taking care of Captain F. through his illness and old age. 3w

CarolynM I agree @Lcsmcat The story of how Marion met Captain F put a different complexion on their relationship. Clearly there was a lot of gratitude there. It also made me look at her relationship with Ellinger differently - I felt more sympathetic to the reasons she may have had for being unfaithful and also it was clear she felt committed to Ellinger too. 3w

CarolynM I also highlighted your second quote @Graywacke And "It was what he most held against Mrs Forrester; that she was not willing to immolate herself, ... and die with the pioneer period with which she belonged." Cather is brilliant at embodying nostalgia for the great pioneering times in her central characters "He had seen the end of an era, the sunset of the pioneer. He had come upon it when already it's glory was nearly spent."? 3w

CarolynM I don't really buy that sort of nostalgia, but it can be seductive. One final thought - how much do you think Mrs F's dealings with Ivy Peters, particularly after the Captain's death, were her free choice, and how much was she manipulated/exploited by him? I wonder if he had been blackmailing her all along. 3w

Lcsmcat @CarolynM Whether he was blackmailing her or not, I don‘t think it was a free choice. She had few options open to her for survival. If cleaning her own house was a sign of destitution, no one would pay her to clean theirs. She had very limited options for keeping body and soul together. And she chose one that gave her some amount of independence. 3w

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM I wondered about the nature of the Mr-Mrs F relationship and the compatibility/confrontation with her affair. There seemed to be more to their relationship than simply husband/wife. Some other connections and loyalties and tolerances. Anyway, a lot between them that was - you know, that world no one else sees in a relationship. Interesting to me. 3w

Graywacke @CarolynM so interesting her take in this mythical end of an era. Since she lived through it, in Red Cloud, I would venture to say she is showing what she saw and there was a real change. Maybe Captain was myth, but a change from immigrant farmers to money-go-getting land dealers and other opportunist was probably real. I think I do buy it, to a degree 3w

Graywacke @CarolynM @Lcsmcat Ivy, oye. Part of the problem is the dynamics are obscured by Niel‘s judgment. She had a need, he saw an opportunity, and she gave her body. But the full nature of the give and take seems to maybe have been more complex. As we learn, she wasn‘t just a blind woodpecker, she had ways to get things and she was much more complicated then her documenter, pore Niel... 3w

Graywacke I think the mystery of Marians relations with Mr. F and Ivy are - well, they give a lot to think about. Curious to hear more of your thoughts on those dynamics. 3w

batsy @CarolynM Not sure about the blackmailing myself, but I agree with @Lcsmcat that Mrs F situation was circumscribed and she did what she could to keep herself together and interestingly, to maintain a particular lifestyle. Cather really excels at this—Mrs F is a certain kind of person who is invested in maintaining a certain kind of lifestyle, but Cather doesn't portray her in order to pass judgment. There is also empathy. 3w

batsy I love the second quote too, and how it ends... "she had always the power of suggesting things much lovelier than herself..." that's the dreamlike feeling I get from Niel's nostalgia-tinged recollection that I think mentioned last week. Something that's there but not quite there. 3w

Graywacke @batsy i like part of the line too. 3w

Graywacke @batsy regarding her life style - just thinking it through, what do you think are her options? If she has no income (via male supporter), what does she become? Does she survive, if you like... is it a preference or a kind of life and death? 3w

batsy @Graywacke Class & a certain level of comfort that comes with that, is maybe what I'm thinking. Her options would be extremely limited; there would be the threat of poverty & greatly diminished circumstances. So yes, death of the soul for Mrs F, in a way. As I read this I kept thinking about Antonia & how would she fare in this situation... But then I realised class & background play a huge role. 3w

Graywacke @batsy Class does. But, I guess what I‘m thinking is, does Marian makes it as a normal person or worse? Ántonia was physically extra tough, and self-reliant. She‘d survive any culture except one of judgment. Whereas Marian is physically soft and very dependent. So maybe it‘s not just maintaining her own class, (edited) 3w

Graywacke (Opps, hit send by mistake) ... but also can she literally get by one a lower class level. One thing about Ivy, like Ántonia, he‘s self-reliant, and he can go down and get by. He has no real fear of poverty. 3w

CarolynM Re the Mr-Mrs F relationship and her infidelity - I don't think she married him for his money or position, I think he literally saved her and she was grateful and that led to the marriage. Given that starting point and the large age difference (and also a possibly false impression of how he treated her) I can understand why she might look for passion elsewhere. I'm not sure what it says about me, but I'd be less understanding if I thought she 👇 3w

CarolynM ☝was a gold digger (the bargain then being her body for the money/position). The phone call with Ellinger after his marriage made me believe that, at least on her part, that was a genuinely romantic relationship and not just sex. As for Ivy, she was worldly enough to be aware of what kind of man he was. I thought it was strange that she suddenly seemed to think her only means to an income was through him. Surely there were others who might have👇 3w

CarolynM ☝️leased the land. That's why I wondered about blackmail. The stuff about him becoming her lawyer was a bit suspicious too. 3w

Lcsmcat @CarolynM I think she fired the Judge as her attorney because he would have kept her in genteel poverty and dependence in order to maintain her “respectability.” (Think the Miss Bates from Emma.) And she wanted independence more than respectability. 3w

Lcsmcat @CarolynM And was there anyonebelse who could lease the land? I feel like that was part of Cather‘s showing us the change from pioneers to robber barons. The old guard didn‘t have the means, and the new powerful didn‘t have high ideals/manners/honor? 3w

Lcsmcat @batsy @graywacke I think Mrs F was facing the death of the body, as well as the soul! She was not as strong as Ántonia, mentally or physically. The alcoholism illustrates an inability to deal with difficult realities. 3w

Lcsmcat But we have to remember that we‘re only allowed to see what Niel sees. We have no access to her inner life. 3w

Lcsmcat https://www.google.com/amp/s/mirabiledictu.org/2015/12/18/willa-cathers-a-lost-l... This is an interesting blog post on the role, not so much of class, but of money. Cather is quoted as saying the book was an attempt to paint a “fine miniature on ivory” of Mrs. F. 3w

batsy @Lcsmcat Thanks for the link, going to check it out. 3w

Lcsmcat Another thought: written in 1923, can we view Cather‘s vision on the Ivey‘s of the world as seeing ahead to the crash of ‘29, caused by that type of “money at all costs and honesty and honor be damned” mentality? Not that she prophesied the crash specifically, but she was sounding a warning or making an astute observation about where that behavior leads. 3w

jewright I definitely feel like she loved Ellinger. I feel like they should have been together, but she was already married to the captain. Surely her husband had suspicions. Perhaps he only cared about keeping up the appearance of their marriage and didn‘t mind her indiscretions as long as they were quiet. Perhaps he was just naive too. Neils Hayes Ivy, but I‘m not sure she does. I don‘t think she is deceived about anything she does. It‘s all calculated. 3w

Lcsmcat @jewright I got the feeling the Captain knew and was willing to accept that as the price of her devotion. I don‘t have the quote in front of me, but at one point Niel says something like, he guessed the Captain knew her better than he thought. I‘ll have to look it up. 3w

Graywacke @CarolynM @jewright rethinking her phone call with Ellinger - which I found a memorable scene in many ways, found myself wondering how Cather created such attention drawing impressions. And wondering if Niel did the right thing in cutting the cord. I kind of felt the bastard needed to hear what he‘d done... but also - Ellinger rejects her right at the point she was about to become available, right at the point she actually needed him. big setback! 3w

Graywacke @Lcsmcat enjoyed that review you linked to. Interesting about Cather‘s change in focus. The article I linked to above describes a different change - new critical Cather pulling away from the world. Both see this book as the pivot point. 3w

Graywacke @Lcsmcat so, to get to your depression sense in Cather, it‘s possible there was something she really didn‘t like about these Harding years. Once greed and corruption become destructive on a whole society - kind of thing. Just my thinking out loud. 3w

Graywacke @batsy @CarolynM @Lcsmcat @jewright I found this a powerfully compact little book that surprised me several times. So, to just to get this out there - did everyone like it? Did it get to you? 3w

Lcsmcat @Graywacke re: the depression, while the way it‘s taught can make Black Friday seem sudden and unexpected, I think many people saw it coming. But like today, they were not able to stop it. Wolfe gives an idea of that in You Can‘t Go Home Again, where people witnessing the leveraged buying and selling described it as a fever, and knew it couldn‘t be sustained. But those who were profiting from it didn‘t/couldn‘t see. Kind of Lear-like. I‘m 👇🏻 3w

Lcsmcat not claiming Cather was a prophet, but she was a keen observer. I‘m sure many people were shaking their heads during the time between the wars wondering when the other shoe would drop. 3w

Lcsmcat And I did really like this book! Her prose is still spot on but the subject matter seems a bit more nuanced perhaps? 3w

Graywacke @Lcsmcat she certainly saw the rot - not sure she saw the house falling. Interesting about Wolfe. I‘ve never read him. 3w

batsy @Lcsmcat About the real risk of being left in genteel poverty, I like your comparison to Miss Bates in Emma. That's the sense I got of Mrs F. She reminded me of a less tragic version of Wharton's Lily Bart. The blog post you linked to—I appreciated learning that Mrs F is based on a woman Cather knew growing up. Niel's recollections are nostalgic, dreamlike, & very personal... tinged with that sense of betrayal of youth watching their idols fall. 3w

batsy @Graywacke I really liked it! Your description sums up my reaction. Like I mentioned above I'm also obsessed with the parallels I see about how Wharton characterised Lily Bart in House of Mirth. Considering the era, I'm so curious if Cather read House of Mirth & Age of Innocence... It's certainly possible that both Cather & Wharton saw what the economic boom did to people and were, as @Lcsmcat says, thinking about the (future) costs... 3w

CarolynM @Lcsmcat I'm sure you're right that some people saw the crash of '29 coming, but I doubt they would have realised how far-reaching and catastrophic it would turn out to be. @Graywacke I liked it the book, and Mrs F, a lot. Wistful is the word that best describes it, I think. 3w

Graywacke @batsy ( @lcsmcat ) - I so need to read Edith Wharton... (my main biggest reading hole is basically 1800-1950 😕) 3w

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM @batsy @jewright @crazeedi @Tanisha_A @Caterina @Louise @Sace @Tamra @rubyslippersreads Next book? The next in the chronology is The Professor‘s House (which I recently read a negative review on that called it chopped up). Also, we skipped Alexander‘s Bridge, her 1st novel (and 20 years of short stories before that). I‘m going to suggest we keep this new Cather mentality going and read The Professor‘s House next. Interested? 3w

Graywacke January 14 for first discussion? 3w

Lcsmcat That works for me. (January and The Professor‘s House) I would like to go back and catch Alexander‘s Bridge at some point if y‘all are interested. (edited) 3w

Sace Sounds good. 3w

Louise Good plan. I‘m in. 🤓 3w

rubyslippersreads @Lcsmcat This immediately made me think of the scene in the movie “Titanic,” where we find out how “money at all costs” Cal reacts to the Crash. 3w

rubyslippersreads I‘m definitely in for reading another Cather in January. 3w

CarolynM I'm good with that plan. I'm also interested in reading Alexander's Bridge and the short stories at some stage. 3w

jewright @Graywacke I like Edith Wharton a lot. 2w

jewright @Graywacke I‘m in! I‘m enjoying reading more Cather. 2w

batsy Count me in! The plan sounds good :) 2w

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